Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Maximum-Football 2.0 is the latest and greatest release from the acclaimed sports management video game studio, Wintervalley Software. Bringing a whole host of new features like full Xbox 360 controller support, full DirectX 9.0 utilization, and scores of other upgrades and improvements, Maximum-Football 2.0 delivers on gameplay and fun like a bullet pass through double coverage. Like its predecessor, Maximum-Football 2.0 allows players to experience the thrill of managing a team in any league!

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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

ORIGINAL: garysorrell

I'm just not sure what you want to do, when you say push ahead. I will continue to make stadiums, i've already made 41. I've also made over 100 uniforms.
Mykal, local8h, redwolf1....the stuff is all out there. What exactly are you talking about doing? The stuff I made is there for anyone to use. If someone wants to put it in some sort of 'pack' or 'addon' they can(My stuff, not speaking for anyone else).
Well like Gary, I always release what I make
and as its always readily available to anyone and everyone
I have no objections to anything of mine being packaged up and released in some add on
providing it was not packaged as someone elses work - when its mine
and I would have more than a frown if it was price tagged, my stuff is free and always will be.[;)]
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redwolf1
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by redwolf1 »

ORIGINAL: Marauders

As Old Coach said, the game has its pros and cons.  All games do.

The question is if we want to push forward or not.

It would be great if JD would finish up the utilities, but the gang at Football Freaks are keeping him busy on the Madden project.


Well, that's a major issue, IMHO - not JD working elsewhere, mind you (heck, I like what he is doing over at FF ), but the fact that the game never did attract enough of those with the desire and the programing know how to program all the various utilities that would help to really polish up/enhance the game and help drive a consumer base and elevate the game into a truly cult classic. We needed a JD over here, but we also needed a Lorne Sundby, an NZA, and the like as well. This didn't happen..."why" is a completely up for debate - we could fault decisions David made, decisions Matrix made, etc. (but that's another arguement). I knew shortly after 2.0 was released that if there wasn't the makings of strong 3rd party utility development or if there didn't appear to be a potential of a vibrant utility base, the game would be in trouble (that coupled with the price point [8|]).

There has been fantastic work that has already been done by the community (and continues to be done on a daily basis), and I don't want to belittle the excellent stuff that has come out nor offend the designers/authors. I only say that there needed to be more in the lines of utilites/tools for the title. It was, to a very large degree, utilities that made FBPro what it was. Madden would be a stinking pile of poo without the 3rd party utility development. We just didn't get it here ...and this at no fault to JD...

Now, wouldn't it be interesting if David allowed his baby to fly by setting it free...(in other words, releasing the source code)...that, I think would prove very interesting, very interesting indeed - not that it would ever happen...

Just my take...
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Marauders
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

Michael, you know from our PM conversations that I agree with much of what you are saying, and you know how long I have been trying to get more done from the third party side of things.  I will add that your efforts in this area and elsewhere have been appreciated.

One thing that the community should keep in mind is that three major errors were made with the development and release of Maximum Football.  The first was that it was released in a state that was not ready.  That meant the initial reviews would not be very good.  Second, it was released at a price point that was $20 higher than David had initially expressed he wanted for the title - 66% higher than the $30 that david had targeted.  That meant that sales would be flat.  Third, Maximum Football 2.0 was released as a free upgrade when revenue was needed to keep development going.

There has always been a tug of war between adding features and the consumer willing to pay for them.  When the game sales dipped, it became more difficult to convince the developer that adding features was worthwhile.  But, because the distributor did not alter the price point for more than a few very brief sales weeks, the sales were not going to pick up without some of these changes or more.

FBPro did not have free utilities.  In fact, the last time I checked, the Gelat and Sundby utilities still require a password fee.  Some of the Madden utilities are free to the public.  EA Sports and Tiburon already made their money on the game, so it isn't like they were going to do a slider project or open files for custom leagues.  What I would like to see is for this community to be someplace in between to keep it healthy.

David will never release Maximum Football into the public domain, nor should he.  If a small team could be put together, with access to the source code, to update the game and correct some bugs, that may be different story, and it is one area I have already looked into.  Considering that David is always worried about potential IP conflicts and issues, it is a longshot.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Lucas718 »

I guess my question is why was further revenue needed to keep development going?  Through the entire process we were told that David was programming the game in his spare time.  Now I'm not saying he shouldn't make anything for his efforts, but he supposedly had a full time job.  It never appeared that he needed MaxFB to be a success in order to put food on the table.  Yes he worked on it for over 2 years after the initial release by pumping out free updates but let's be honest, those updates were needed in order to get the game to where it should have been at the initial release.  If he had just kept quiet about it and kept working on it and released it now, he'd have a lot more people interested in the game.  I just don't understand how someone who put 5 years into a project can just walk away from it and the people who supported him like none of it matters.  Where is the pride in the work?  Where is the drive to see something through to completion?  Where was the note of thanks to everyone who supported him over the years?   Why all the promises of future updates and features that were being worked on for MF 2.5 and MF 3.0? 

I think back to a post David made right before the initial release in which he stated that he considered scrapping the whole project at the last minute.  I always thought that was strange, but now I guess it makes sense.  He was always willing to throw it all away whether it was complete or not.  Maybe he was more interested in trying to make a quick buck than a quality product. 
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Tullius »

I guess my question is why was further revenue needed to keep development going?

Do you really think that he makes a programm because you are the great Lucas718 ?

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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

I guess my question is why was further revenue needed to keep development going? Through the entire process we were told that David was programming the game in his spare time.

Going by this statement, I don't believe you understand the process, and I don't believe you understand how much time each day David actually put into coding Maximum Football. Being a programmer is a mind wracking job in itself. David put in his time at work, mostly for Electronic Arts, and then came home and worked on the game often for another four to six hours and often on weekends as well.
Yes he worked on it for over 2 years after the initial release by pumping out free updates but let's be honest, those updates were needed in order to get the game to where it should have been at the initial release.

While I agree that the game should not have been shipped when it was, I disagree that David and Matrix Dames should not have been paid for value added content. I never did like the development model used to create to Maximum Football because it didn't do enough to make sure that essential items were in the game at each lock down, and it didn't have distinct lockdowns. That meant that 1.1 wasn't ready for release, and 1.3 wasn't cleaned up enough to be a stand alone product. 1.3 flowed into 1.5 which became 2.0.

That would have been fine, but 2.0 wasn't ready in many areas either, and Matrix Games treated 2.0 like a new product price wise. I don't believe Matrix Games understood the market for this product, and how much the price would limit demand.
If he had just kept quiet about it and kept working on it and released it now, he'd have a lot more people interested in the game.

If David had kept quite about it, the game would not have been much more than Backyard Football. I think you underestimate how much time and effort the beta team had to use to get Maximum Football into football shape as anything resembling a simulation of the actual game. I can honestly say that I likely logged over 500 hours in beta and as the board moderator, and beta had heavy rotation with Old Coach, nmleague, Tullius, Gary, Ed, and others.

I do agree that if David had brought in more football minds from the start and then set in to create Maximum Football, it would have been a lot easier and a lot cleaner at release. Too much of the game had to have things recoded that could have been just coded once if the plan was more clear from the get go. This is something I brought up long before Maximum Football was even associated with Matrix Games.

That stated, one should give David credit for making many changes to Maximum Football that the beta team and community asked for. Only the better developers are willing to do that, and David should have received better compensation for his efforts.

Leaving the board, on the other hand, was neither good for the product nor a smart thing to do for the prospects of any future products.
I just don't understand how someone who put 5 years into a project can just walk away from it and the people who supported him like none of it matters. Where is the pride in the work? Where is the drive to see something through to completion?

I believe in David's opinion, 2.2 is complete. He gave his final build to Matrix Games and left it at that. I don't agree with that, because although that is how a contracted programmer would do it, a developer needs to do more to follow up. David chose to wear the many hats he did on this project, but then he got burned out from the weight of them.
Where was the note of thanks to everyone who supported him over the years?

I'll just state that the developer likely doesn't see support the same way that the community or beta team does. Just like the viewpoint of EA Sports and Sony, support isn't something the developer gets; support is something the developer gives. I disagree with that, especially when it comes to the beta team, but that is the likely view of things nevertheless. It is a far too common view from large software companies, but small developers have to understand that mutual support is the only way to make money in the long run.

To be fair, David worked harder on this project that most people, outside of the beta team and his wife, know. I am sure he had pride in his work.
Why all the promises of future updates and features that were being worked on for MF 2.5 and MF 3.0?

2.5 was actively being worked on, and 3.0 was being planned.
I think back to a post David made right before the initial release in which he stated that he considered scrapping the whole project at the last minute. I always thought that was strange, but now I guess it makes sense. He was always willing to throw it all away whether it was complete or not.

David has made similar statements in public from time to time. I won't get into the psychology of such statements, but it really is too bad.
Maybe he was more interested in trying to make a quick buck than a quality product.

I am sure David and Matrix Games were trying to make money from the game. That is, after all, the literal bottom line.

I don't believe there was anything quick about it. David certainly paid his dues and put in his time.

Again, I must state that I am not here to either defend David or demonize him. I have been as critical as anyone about the way this was handled and about the way the game was developed, but one must be fair and give credit where credit is due, and David deserves a lot of credit for taking this game to where it is now. Maximum Football 2.2 isn't as good as 2.5 would have been or 3.0 may be in the future, but it is much better than 1.1 was and better than many other football games in some areas. The beta team should be given credit for pushing features, giving detailed input, and testing the game, and the public should be given credit for making the purchase and supporting the community, but David did all of the coding, and that was a lot of the real hard work.
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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

ORIGINAL: redwolf1


Well, that's a major issue, IMHO - not JD working elsewhere, mind you (heck, I like what he is doing over at FF ), but the fact that the game never did attract enough of those with the desire and the programing know how to program all the various utilities that would help to really polish up/enhance the game and help drive a consumer base and elevate the game into a truly cult classic. We needed a JD over here, but we also needed a Lorne Sundby, an NZA, and the like as well. This didn't happen..."why" is a completely up for debate - we could fault decisions David made, decisions Matrix made, etc. (but that's another arguement). I knew shortly after 2.0 was released that if there wasn't the makings of strong 3rd party utility development or if there didn't appear to be a potential of a vibrant utility base, the game would be in trouble (that coupled with the price point [8|]).

There has been fantastic work that has already been done by the community (and continues to be done on a daily basis), and I don't want to belittle the excellent stuff that has come out nor offend the designers/authors. I only say that there needed to be more in the lines of utilites/tools for the title. It was, to a very large degree, utilities that made FBPro what it was. Madden would be a stinking pile of poo without the 3rd party utility development. We just didn't get it here ...and this at no fault to JD...

Now, wouldn't it be interesting if David allowed his baby to fly by setting it free...(in other words, releasing the source code)...that, I think would prove very interesting, very interesting indeed - not that it would ever happen...

Just my take...

I'd have to agree with ya Redwolf,
we've leaned heavily on JD, basically because there is no-one else here who can do the things he's done
and some may forget he's actually just one of us and expect way to much from him.
more programmers would certainly help......... but theirs never been any real interest from anyone else other than JD
and I fear, Nor will there be in the future.

We are fast looking like a dead duck, despite the efforts of some really good guys here
Nope before anyone jumps on me back........... I aint knocking the game or the community, I like both
but you all musta noticed things are slippin' away, slowly but slippin' none the less.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by DAWUSS »

This game still has some life left as it currently is. A lot of that can be placed on what PC Football games are on the horizon (competition could drive it out very quickly). But at the same time, MFB allows for things that aren't seen in other games, such as 12 man or 8 man football (most games is purely 11 man, 100 yd football), leagues at various levels, from Pop Warner to Professional (most games are professional), which can give it a minor (at least) chance of an additional playing life. And there are the customization aspects, from playbooks, to teams, to jerseys, to stadiums. Of course, a lot of these things are akin to applying paint to a car. It'll make it look new and different, but at the end of the day it's still the same car with the same features and problems. Some of the animations are hideous (sure, they're better than the virtual players of the '90's, but they're still horrible), there's really no atmosphere in game (I'll admit, it'd be tough to put in), gameplay restrictions (such as the option, WR reverse passes), depth chart restrictions (WR/P, OLB/FB, QB/CB/K/P/KR/PR [more for lower level and smaller size leagues]), and player model consistency (one play the player looks like Ed McCaffrey, the next he looks like Gilbert Brown).

This game is still a good game, it's allowed me to do things other games haven't allowed me to do, such as get interested in Canadian football, and have high school football whenever I want, but in it's current state there's only so many yards we're gonna' get out of this thing before it's time to hang it up.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by redwolf1 »

ORIGINAL: DAWUSS

And there are the customization aspects, from playbooks, to teams, to jerseys, to stadiums.

Well, these aren't really limited to MaxFB anymore...with the "other" title, playbooks will soon be able to be imported. Teams can already be costumized as can jerseys and even stadiums as well to a certain degree.

But the point is taken. MaxFB is still a decent game and has some character to it and features already mentioned (eg. custom rules, custom league sizes, field size, 8, 11, 12 man) that cannot be matched anywhere at the moment.


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regenerator
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by regenerator »

I have a few questions, Marauders, if you have the time -

1) Could you address more specifically what you are intending to include in this patch, were it released? There have been some good issues raised in this post as to what this will provide that is not already readily available for free. Are there going to be bug fixes/coding changes? It seems from everything I’ve read that such things are impossible at this point.

2) Why would David never release the source code to the public? Moreover, why, as you state, should he not?
From a logical standpoint, I don’t understand this - perhaps it’s simply because I haven't been on the inside of such a situation. Does it have to do with others profiting off something that he worked on? I could obviously see the objection to this, much as a copyright infringement on an artists’ work should never be allowed.

However, if David is going to detach himself from this project as completely as it appears he has, then I ask you - why not? Why let a work of such magnitude sit, unused, on a server somewhere collecting dust? What a shame to stow away something that could bring joy to many others. Why not at least give this project a chance to reach its full potential? If there are those who would (and I'm sure there are) want to pick up where David left off, what’s the harm, especially if he truly plans to never do anything further with it? I don’t want to assume too much about the psyche of someone I don’t know, but I would think any person would find some pleasure in seeing something they had put so much of their life into reach its final, intended state (even if it took allowing others to take it that last step), rather than leaving it to suffer a sudden and untimely death, never fulfilling its great promise.

I suppose there must be other factors beyond simple logic at work. I would at least like to know what those are, if you can reveal them. It will ease the pain of another disappointment like this...

Speaking of disappointments, reading someone gush about its vast potential and apparently fantastic physics engine made me wonder... whatever happened to the source code for FB Pro '99? Locked away by business interests, perhaps? Another shame.

Who knew trying to find a great, realistic sim football game would be so frustrating?!?

Oh well, here's to another ten years...maybe that dream football game will finally be realized around 2020
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Tullius »

Well, these aren't really limited to MaxFB anymore...with the "other" title, playbooks will soon be able to be imported.

Do you mean what the Madden community has done - but to be honest, these achievements have more a character of walking sticks - an 16 team league in a 32 teams enviroments, a CLF with 11 players on a 100 yard field - this all is a bunch of makeshift solutions.

MF has still much more potential (when you know how to use it).

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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

ORIGINAL: DAWUSS

This game still has some life left as it currently is. A lot of that can be placed on what PC Football games are on the horizon (competition could drive it out very quickly). But at the same time, MFB allows for things that aren't seen in other games, such as 12 man or 8 man football (most games is purely 11 man, 100 yd football), leagues at various levels, from Pop Warner to Professional (most games are professional), which can give it a minor (at least) chance of an additional playing life. And there are the customization aspects, from playbooks, to teams, to jerseys, to stadiums. Of course, a lot of these things are akin to applying paint to a car. It'll make it look new and different, but at the end of the day it's still the same car with the same features and problems. Some of the animations are hideous (sure, they're better than the virtual players of the '90's, but they're still horrible), there's really no atmosphere in game (I'll admit, it'd be tough to put in), gameplay restrictions (such as the option, WR reverse passes), depth chart restrictions (WR/P, OLB/FB, QB/CB/K/P/KR/PR [more for lower level and smaller size leagues]), and player model consistency (one play the player looks like Ed McCaffrey, the next he looks like Gilbert Brown).

This game is still a good game, it's allowed me to do things other games haven't allowed me to do, such as get interested in Canadian football, and have high school football whenever I want, but in it's current state there's only so many yards we're gonna' get out of this thing before it's time to hang it up.
Hmmmm,
not sure thats current anymore
it used to be the case but not any longer
how much we get from this titles now realies purely on the community
and with a community thats fast shrinking, what will actually be left............
Probarbly Me, GarySorrell and perhaps yourself..........hahahahahaha only joking
but on the other hand it could actually be true real soon

Yep this title offer much that others dont but that matters not if no-ones playing it
or helping keep the community alive.......... that was my point,
it wasnt my intention to imply the game is garbage because thats not my opinion.
regenerator
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by regenerator »

So just to clarify...

Is MaxFB still the only game with customizable league sizes and a career mode?  To me, these are the features I can't do without.

I'm referring to true customizable, btw...so excluding the Madden mods' ability to create 16-team leagues in Madden
therhino
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by therhino »

ORIGINAL: regenerator

I have a few questions, Marauders, if you have the time -

1) Could you address more specifically what you are intending to include in this patch, were it released? There have been some good issues raised in this post as to what this will provide that is not already readily available for free. Are there going to be bug fixes/coding changes? It seems from everything I’ve read that such things are impossible at this point.
No bug fixes, just uniform, stadium, and playbook updates.
2) Why would David never release the source code to the public? Moreover, why, as you state, should he not?
From a logical standpoint, I don’t understand this - perhaps it’s simply because I haven't been on the inside of such a situation. Does it have to do with others profiting off something that he worked on? I could obviously see the objection to this, much as a copyright infringement on an artists’ work should never be allowed.

Releasing the source code is a bad idea, but if he had made the models and/or animations editable I think the game would be much more popular. The models and animations are awful and I think many people don't buy the game because of them.
quixian
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by quixian »

ORIGINAL: regenerator

So just to clarify...

Is MaxFB still the only game with customizable league sizes and a career mode? To me, these are the features I can't do without.

I'm referring to true customizable, btw...so excluding the Madden mods' ability to create 16-team leagues in Madden

To my knowledge, it's the only GRAPHICAL PC football sim to allow true customise-ability other than the 10 year old and buggy as hell FBPro 99. It's definitely the only one that has flexibility in league structure and rules to the degree it does.

Madden and BCFX are Graphical (ie, you can see the players on the field executing the plays) but are NOT designed to be customizable as to league size, rules, etc.

Second and Ten, Football Mogul, Front Office Football, Action PC Sports Football, Cactus League Football and others allow customization, but are not graphical titles, they are text sims.

There is a hybrid game in the works (Draft Day Sports: Pro Football) that is expected to have minimal graphics and full customization.

Finally, there is BackBreaker, which is definitely graphical, but how customizable the game will be upon release is largely speculative at this point. Should be fun to play, regardless.
Lucas718
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Lucas718 »

ORIGINAL: Tullius
I guess my question is why was further revenue needed to keep development going?

Do you really think that he makes a programm because you are the great Lucas718 ?


I thought it was a pretty simple question. The game was in development for 5 years without him making a cent on it. Why now does he need money in order to do more?
therhino
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by therhino »

ORIGINAL: Lucas718
I thought it was a pretty simple question. The game was in development for 5 years without him making a cent on it. Why now does he need money in order to do more?
I don't think it was as much about money as it was about David burning out.
Lucas718
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Lucas718 »

ORIGINAL: Marauders
I guess my question is why was further revenue needed to keep development going? Through the entire process we were told that David was programming the game in his spare time.

Going by this statement, I don't believe you understand the process, and I don't believe you understand how much time each day David actually put into coding Maximum Football. Being a programmer is a mind wracking job in itself. David put in his time at work, mostly for Electronic Arts, and then came home and worked on the game often for another four to six hours and often on weekends as well.
Yes he worked on it for over 2 years after the initial release by pumping out free updates but let's be honest, those updates were needed in order to get the game to where it should have been at the initial release.

While I agree that the game should not have been shipped when it was, I disagree that David and Matrix Dames should not have been paid for value added content. I never did like the development model used to create to Maximum Football because it didn't do enough to make sure that essential items were in the game at each lock down, and it didn't have distinct lockdowns. That meant that 1.1 wasn't ready for release, and 1.3 wasn't cleaned up enough to be a stand alone product. 1.3 flowed into 1.5 which became 2.0.

That would have been fine, but 2.0 wasn't ready in many areas either, and Matrix Games treated 2.0 like a new product price wise. I don't believe Matrix Games understood the market for this product, and how much the price would limit demand.
If he had just kept quiet about it and kept working on it and released it now, he'd have a lot more people interested in the game.

If David had kept quite about it, the game would not have been much more than Backyard Football. I think you underestimate how much time and effort the beta team had to use to get Maximum Football into football shape as anything resembling a simulation of the actual game. I can honestly say that I likely logged over 500 hours in beta and as the board moderator, and beta had heavy rotation with Old Coach, nmleague, Tullius, Gary, Ed, and others.

I do agree that if David had brought in more football minds from the start and then set in to create Maximum Football, it would have been a lot easier and a lot cleaner at release. Too much of the game had to have things recoded that could have been just coded once if the plan was more clear from the get go. This is something I brought up long before Maximum Football was even associated with Matrix Games.

That stated, one should give David credit for making many changes to Maximum Football that the beta team and community asked for. Only the better developers are willing to do that, and David should have received better compensation for his efforts.

Leaving the board, on the other hand, was neither good for the product nor a smart thing to do for the prospects of any future products.
I just don't understand how someone who put 5 years into a project can just walk away from it and the people who supported him like none of it matters. Where is the pride in the work? Where is the drive to see something through to completion?

I believe in David's opinion, 2.2 is complete. He gave his final build to Matrix Games and left it at that. I don't agree with that, because although that is how a contracted programmer would do it, a developer needs to do more to follow up. David chose to wear the many hats he did on this project, but then he got burned out from the weight of them.
Where was the note of thanks to everyone who supported him over the years?

I'll just state that the developer likely doesn't see support the same way that the community or beta team does. Just like the viewpoint of EA Sports and Sony, support isn't something the developer gets; support is something the developer gives. I disagree with that, especially when it comes to the beta team, but that is the likely view of things nevertheless. It is a far too common view from large software companies, but small developers have to understand that mutual support is the only way to make money in the long run.

To be fair, David worked harder on this project that most people, outside of the beta team and his wife, know. I am sure he had pride in his work.
Why all the promises of future updates and features that were being worked on for MF 2.5 and MF 3.0?

2.5 was actively being worked on, and 3.0 was being planned.
I think back to a post David made right before the initial release in which he stated that he considered scrapping the whole project at the last minute. I always thought that was strange, but now I guess it makes sense. He was always willing to throw it all away whether it was complete or not.

David has made similar statements in public from time to time. I won't get into the psychology of such statements, but it really is too bad.
Maybe he was more interested in trying to make a quick buck than a quality product.

I am sure David and Matrix Games were trying to make money from the game. That is, after all, the literal bottom line.

I don't believe there was anything quick about it. David certainly paid his dues and put in his time.

Again, I must state that I am not here to either defend David or demonize him. I have been as critical as anyone about the way this was handled and about the way the game was developed, but one must be fair and give credit where credit is due, and David deserves a lot of credit for taking this game to where it is now. Maximum Football 2.2 isn't as good as 2.5 would have been or 3.0 may be in the future, but it is much better than 1.1 was and better than many other football games in some areas. The beta team should be given credit for pushing features, giving detailed input, and testing the game, and the public should be given credit for making the purchase and supporting the community, but David did all of the coding, and that was a lot of the real hard work.

I understand he put in many many hours on the game and it eventually burned him out. I know he took the game further than he ever intended but there are still some parts that could use work. For him to just drop the whole project really looks bad. How can anyone have faith in him to buy another product he creates?

I disagree that the game would have been no more popular than Backyard Football if he had waited to release it. A quality product will attract customers. Word will get around. PC sports gamers have been begging for a successor to Football Pro for nearly a decade now. A lot of people were turned off by the condition the game was in when it was released and they never came back to give the game another chance. It may sound like I'm just bashing the game but I do still enjoy it and play it nearly every day. I have a 76 team NCAA league running. I just really wish he would have stuck around to continue development. The whole thing opened old wounds from the FBPro 99 debacle because of the way it ended.

You guys on the beta team deserve a lot of credit for sticking with the game even though your suggestions and recommendations were not being implemented. I give you all credit for trying.

I also play OOTP baseball. I have bought every version since OOTP3. Markus Heinsohn is the role model every one-man developer team should follow. He communicates with the users frequently. He makes himself part of the community and he tirelessly pumps out quality updates. He has established a track record of great support for the game. His is the only game I pre-order every year. I guess I had hoped to see the same from David and I'm disappointed that he chose not to stick around to finish what he started.

I guess that's really all I have to say about it. There's really no point in continuing to debate about what should have happened. What's done is done. Sorry for hijacking the thread. It was never my intention, but the conversation just kinda drifted away from the original topic.
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redwolf1
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 12:05 am
Location: Maple Ridge, B.C., Canada

RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by redwolf1 »

ORIGINAL: regenerator

So just to clarify...

Is MaxFB still the only game with customizable league sizes and a career mode?  To me, these are the features I can't do without.

I'm referring to true customizable, btw...so excluding the Madden mods' ability to create 16-team leagues in Madden

Well, if you want to go back several years, Madden 2002 had customizable league sizes with career mode - but, you weren't truly free to choose any league structure you wanted though...but it did have more options than the Madden's thereafter having several size options like 8, 10, 12, 16, 18, 24, 28, and 32 team league sizes (if memory serves me correct). I grabbed it for $3 a year and a half ago (it was a version I intially passed on), and discovered that patched and tunned, it wasn't half bad to my surprise (indeed, I'd rank it as the 3rd best Madden behind 2008 and 2004).
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long_time_fan
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:55 pm

RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by long_time_fan »

Honestly, at this point, it seems a little odd to me to be talking about this any more.  Perhaps this is my lack of understanding, but new playbooks and uniforms - while nice - won't de-bug the few bugs that are left in the game.  If David won't release the code, or Matrix won't find a way to correct the few deficiencies, then it really is a moot point.  If this game is going to survive (and I truly hope it does because I rather enjoy this game), those with the know-how need to get inside and make it work.  Or else Matrix needs to contract out to a new third party for a new football title (i.e. MaxFB 3).  Just my 2 cents.  I think that you should know that there are a few of us who are lurking, but not writing, so I think that the community is still a little larger than some my think.  However, that may not hold true.
Regards,
LTF
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