Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Maximum-Football 2.0 is the latest and greatest release from the acclaimed sports management video game studio, Wintervalley Software. Bringing a whole host of new features like full Xbox 360 controller support, full DirectX 9.0 utilization, and scores of other upgrades and improvements, Maximum-Football 2.0 delivers on gameplay and fun like a bullet pass through double coverage. Like its predecessor, Maximum-Football 2.0 allows players to experience the thrill of managing a team in any league!

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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

Agreed, Canadian Football was getting almost completely overlooked when I arrived in the forum
thats exactly what spurred me on to do my bit for the canadian game
its not getting overlooked anymore

unfortunately I dont get the time for playbooks
but their are 2 or 3 out their that others have made
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

Gary, you have read my posts in the private beta forum, and you know that I have been the most vocal and critical member regarding the departure of David from development of Maximum Football 2.2.  I have put in more hours on the beta team than anyone other than Old Coach, and I have moderated this forum.  I understand that the game still has some problems, and I would like to have David come in every once in a while and clean a few things up from time to time.

That stated, we have to be realistic about what can be done and what cannot.  We can only look at parts of the game that we, including other community members recruited for this project, have access to, experience with, or expertise in.  If David is willing to give us more, then we'll take it, but we can only do our best with what we have.  In any case, there still is much that can be done, but in order for it to have its greatest impact, it should be coordinated into one effort to keep ideas flowing, duplication down, and a much cleaner product.

I have done my best to build a community with this forum - so much so that I have been accused of backing the community more than the wishes of the developer.  I have always thought that a healthy community is important, but we need to look beyond this community at how Maximum Football is perceived by the gaming public.  We need to make things simple and clean, and an unofficial update is the best way to do it in my opinion.

As for being a paid product or not, I don't believe that a small payment is out of line for such an endeavor.  Consider this, the lack of revenue from the upgrade of Maximum Football to 2.0 from 1.3 pretty much killed development.  David was pretty much coding the game for a few dollars a day.  There are dozens of features I have pushed from my own experience and from input from the community that David added to the game and didn't get an extra penny from.  A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.

Maximum Football 2.2 still has some bugs and quirks.  We know that.  So did Madden 2007 and Madden 2008.  It is also missing some features that I thought important to the game like the option, and heaven knows how hard I pushed for the option in the private forum.  If I could find a way to get that in along with kick types and a few other things, I would, but I would need more support from David.

At this time, it is important to understand what we can do and consider the best ways to get it done.  I can either try to do it on my own or ask for the support and input of community members.  In my opinion, it isn't enough to just do this piecemeal.  Our best efforts must show our best results to move Maximum Football 2.2 forward.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

Unfortunately, I'm a football fan, not a student of the game, so designing plays is something beyond my capabilities (at least not without a lot of study). There has been a lot of work done on various American-rules playbooks, but not very much (any?) with Canadian-rules playbooks. So, I would be interested in an expansion that provided expanded/better Canadian-rules playbook(s).
 
Advanced Canadian and indoor playbooks have always been part of any plan to move forward.
 
Lucas718
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Lucas718 »

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Consider this, the lack of revenue from the upgrade of Maximum Football to 2.0 from 1.3 pretty much killed development.  David was pretty much coding the game for a few dollars a day.  There are dozens of features I have pushed from my own experience and from input from the community that David added to the game and didn't get an extra penny from.  A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.

I agree with everything you wrote except for the part I quoted above. That was the situation David created for himself by releasing the game in a nearly unplayable state. It was practically criminal to be charging $40 for the game considering the state it was in. The burden of support would have been a lot less if he hadn't rushed the initial release to make a quick buck. Disappearing from the board without a word and no longer supporting the product because he's not making any money off it says a lot to me about the type of person we're dealing with (or were). I seriously doubt I could ever buy another product with his name on it.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by redwolf1 »

Well, personally, I've drifted away from the game and could not see myself spending another penny on it. How things evolved and how it all ended left a bit of a sore taste in my mouth, and quite honestly, I'm having more fun with other endeavours. I agree with much of the sentiment previously posted. It's a shame, imho, because there are good people here that work(ed) so hard on the game that deserved much more than what was served...so much potential lost...a pitty...oh well...[:(]
 
 
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

Marauders stated: A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.

I agree with everything you wrote except for the part I quoted above. That was the situation David created for himself by releasing the game in a nearly unplayable state.

I entered beta just prior to the game going gold, and I agree that the game was not ready to go out the door. One must remember that the community on this board practically begged David and Erik to release early in order to get some sort of public beta for Maximum Football. I thought it unwise to do so, but that is what happened. Even if Matrix Games wanted to do this, it would have been much better to have a limited soft opening announced only to community members for early purchase.

It also would have been a good idea to lock down 1.3 and charge anew for 2.0, but David wanted to move on without having to code the same thing twice, and the community wanted the features. That move cost David and Matrix Games revenue, but some of the same game owners that benefited then are complaining now.
It was practically criminal to be charging $40 for the game considering the state it was in. The burden of support would have been a lot less if he hadn't rushed the initial release to make a quick buck.

It was a combined decision by David and Matrix Games to release, and not enough noise was made by beta testers against it. Then again, it wasn't the job of the beta team members to dictate sales strategy.

Note also that David stated on the public Wintervalley Software board for Maximum Football, prior to his association with Matrix Games, that he wanted the game to go out at about $30 with a published manual. The Matrix Games pricing structure, which almost assured mild sales, was a development that David had little control over.
Disappearing from the board without a word and no longer supporting the product because he's not making any money off it says a lot to me about the type of person we're dealing with (or were). I seriously doubt I could ever buy another product with his name on it.


Again, I have been a vocal critic of the way this was handled. Even if David was having issues, he should have come in and said where the game was, what he planned to do, and what he planned not to do. As the developer, it certainly made sense to do so.

That stated, I believe that all of the beta team members knew that David was burning out, the signs were evident to me over a year ago, and I don't believe that some community members understand what that really means in terms of a real world condition. David hit the wall, and he did it while trying to add features and updates that the community requested. Maximum Football was beyond the game he had wanted, he was getting little in return for his efforts, and his life suffered.

When I tell the public that David addressed the beta team day after day, used his nights and weekends for updates, and wasn't just sitting on his hands, it may be hard to believe, but it is factual nevertheless. The only times I recall him taking off for extended periods were during his wedding and during the Grey Cup. Any football fan worth his replica jersey should be able to excuse him for those.

Yeah, it was a bad idea to just up and leave, but even that was likely unintended. I don't believe David wanted to walk away from the game or the community, but while trying to make some changes for 2.5, he just thought that 2.2 would have to do for this go around. There were too many changes needed for 2.5 that would have to be moved to 3.0, and he just needed a break after a half decade of coding.

I am not here to make excuses for David. What I am asking is if we want to move on and do so in an organized manner with specific goals. I understand that for some community members, the answer will be no. There are choices in this poll to indicate that. There are others who would rather wait and see. That's fair enough as well. I just want to see if there is enough base enthusiasm left to warrant the effort needed to move forward.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by MjH »

ORIGINAL: Mykal
but their are 2 or 3 out their that others have made

Really? I missed those. Mykal, do you have pointers to them?
ORIGINAL: Marauders
Advanced Canadian and indoor playbooks have always been part of any plan to move forward.

That's great to hear.
ORIGINAL: Marauders
That stated, I believe that all of the beta team members knew that David was burning out, the signs were evident to me over a year ago, and I don't believe that some community members understand what that really means in terms of a real world condition. David hit the wall, and he did it while trying to add features and updates that the community requested. Maximum Football was beyond the game he had wanted, he was getting little in return for his efforts, and his life suffered.

I always wondered about his situation. It appeared to me that he was spending almost all of his "off-time" working on MF (My career is also software development, so I understand how quickly that can consume all available time). He couldn't have been getting much income from MF, so he had to have been doing a real, full time job to pay the bills.


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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

TH1207 stated: So all my credits goes to our diehard community members like hack, gary, mykal, marauders et al, who keeps this game & community alive.
 
I wouldn´t mind to donate an "unofficial update / patch" as long as its made by community members. But atm I wouldn´t like an official "unofficial" update for which I have to pay for, as there are many flaws that still will be remaining.
 
It's either going to be official or unofficial as far as Matrix Games goes.  I don't really want to get into this in too much detail here, but I will say that unless both David and Matrix Games support any update as official, it won't be.  I have been trying to get an official go for a project like this since September of 2007, and I suspect that official approval with not be forthcoming.
 
When people look at how great FBPro was for leagues, one thing they often leave out is that good leagues often requires Gelat or Sundby tools.  Those tools cost $5-$45 each, and there were many of them.  A league could easily spend $100 on just these.  Yet, I don't hear massive complaints about how much FBPro was not ready for leagues.
 
On the other side, I see the great job Redwolf, JD, and others have done for the Madden community at Football Freaks for basically no cost.  I also see the playbooks and utilities that are being worked on here.  Those are great efforts, and I applaud them, but I want to go beyond that.
 
How many community members would donate for JD's and Tullius's tools?  How many would donate to keep FBMax running?  How many would donate toward advanced playbooks and stadiums on disc?  What I would like to do is coordinate many of these things into one update that would be cheap, but it would also cover some of the costs of creating it.
 
So on one hand we have $100 utilities from Sundby and Gelat, and on the other hand we have freebies.  My premise is that somewhere in between is fair enough.  Not to do so is to have the developer and publisher free load off the works of the community, and that is hard for me to stomach ethically.  Nevertheless, I understand the positions of those who would believe in the contrary.  I would not have asked if I didn't want honest replies.
 
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by mbsports »

I think the issue we're all running into is that Max FB is an approximation of a football simulation but the holes in it prevent it from being realistically called a football simulation.  I can point to a barrage of little but material issues right here -
  • if you ever sim Canadian rules games check the first 10 plays of any game in the logs.  Chances are good you will see a fumble about 40-50% of the time.  Kind of a random thing because you may see that kind of thing 5% of the time in real life but there's no way it is anywhere near as predictable as it is in MaxFB. 
  • You can't onside kick,
  • the computer's clock management is Rod Marinelli esque
  • the graphic models are locked down and quite honestly sub-par
  • the crossbar and goal posts are inanimate objects seemingly - i've never seen anything bounce off em'
  • the ball occasionally goes thru the uprights for 1 point not 3
  • in a simmed game an INT is never returned for a TD,
  • a Punt never returned for a TD
  • a kick never returned for a TD
  • a fumble never returned for a TD. 
  • In the arcade style mode punt returns are too often returned for a score due to some of the innate behavior of saying "go this way" even when it doesn't make sense - no if/then/if not/then possiblities, a lack of the option which is one of the most prevalent offenses of all time
  • The process of setting a depth chart is convoluted and automatically doing it results in quite frankly - wrong assignments<fullback>
  • Positions in 8 man are out of wack where you can't make a LB a FB which is fairly common
  • The computer randomly will create players during a season to fill spots
  • the draft creates way too many players without human intervention
  • there is no usable output on board without massive human intervention
  • Ball doesn't bounce off of walls
  • QB Trajectory is too consistent, low passes aren't whizzers and bombs don't loft enough.&nbsp; Every
  • the stats are saved in a format in the db that requires massive human intervention
  • included playbooks aren't optimized to what the game has expanded into
  • Positional reality is ignored - the NFL, AFL, NCAA, CFL, most High Schools, Amateur teams, indoor leagues.&nbsp; The only league where I saw teams with the positions like those in Max FB was the BAFL.&nbsp; Yes the only way to accurate display positions in Max FB is to use a British American Football League.&nbsp; This is denial of reality, we call them DTs because they play DT in this day and era, when we refer to the player being a tight end we're talking about the position on the field that he most regularly plays and is positioned at per the league he plays in.&nbsp; They use this for contracts so it is a real part of football and MaxFB has ignored it
  • Multiple Lateral Passes behind the line - legal in every league I'm aware of... not possible in Max FB
  • no trade engine per se, no contract engine, no cap engin
I just don't know how to express it in simple terms - the game is not football, it's an approximation of football and what it lacks has been compensated for to a tremendous degree by the community.&nbsp; Now I'll pay for an update and I have no issue doing but can you look above and tell me that those issues don't hurt the marketability and future of any Max FB project.&nbsp; Quite frankly it isn't football as the game is played in any league in the world.&nbsp; I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but the limitations are just huge right now and faith in some of them getting fixed is nill.
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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

Well I cant say your wrong because what you've hit is actual fact

changing the subject slightly and not aiming this at you MB (just the thread in general)

MF update 2.3............. what update ?
did nobody listen to the recent announcement, work on this title has finished
baring someone stepping in to save future progress.......what we have now is all were gonna have.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

mbsports stated: I think the issue we're all running into is that Max FB is an approximation of a football simulation but the holes in it prevent it from being realistically called&nbsp;a football simulation.&nbsp; I can point to a barrage of little but material issues right here -
&nbsp;
Just about all of the issues dealing with how the game simulates a football game have been noted before.&nbsp; A few of us on the beta team brought up even the smallest things, but only so much could be done to get everything in.&nbsp; Everything coded had an opportunity cost, so some things that were noted were not large enough to get worked in.
&nbsp;
One thing to keep in mind is that Maximum Football was not originally designed to be a deep simulation.&nbsp; That doesn't mean that we should not have pushed to make it more realistic, it just means that we have to take what we can get from this version.&nbsp; Madden has been out 20 years, and Football Pro improved from version to version through FBPro 98 as well.
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The sim engine was not supposed to be a major part of the game.&nbsp; It is a tool for game owners that do not want to run all of the games live.&nbsp; Maximum Football cannot match text sim games in that area, just as sim games can't show plays in 3D.
&nbsp;
Football games are not simple to create.&nbsp; They are much more work and detail than a baseball game.&nbsp; There are many more rules and many more variables to keep track of.&nbsp; Those of us who really know the ins and outs of real world football can easily take apart any football game for what it lacks in realism.&nbsp; One must consider that not everyone looking to purchase a football game will need that much detail.&nbsp; Again, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get as much in as we can; it just means that there are limitations.&nbsp; After all, Redwolf wouldn't have needed a sliders project if games like Madden were great simulations out of the box.
&nbsp;
In this case, I can only try to fix or update what I can actually open and work on.&nbsp; It would be great if we could get to the models, but so far, we cannot.&nbsp; We can do our best with what we have and clean up what we can to make the game a better representation of a game of football.&nbsp; It won't be perfection, but it may be a worthy goal nevertheless.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Marauders »

Mykal stated: MF update 2.3............. what update ?

Did nobody listen to the recent announcement; work on this title has finished
baring someone stepping in to save future progress ... what we have now is all were gonna have.

You are startin' ta sound like William 'Bill' Munny.

There were a few items that I was updating for 2.5 that didn't get into 2.2 because I was waiting on potential changes with the way the game handles playbooks and folders. Since we will not see 2.5, I am trying to get these and more into an update or expansion pack. That is what this thread is all about.

One never knows what the future holds.


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garysorrell
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by garysorrell »

Mbsports did a great job of summing things up.

I also have to say I am in a similar situation as redwolf1. I have definately drifted from the game. Making stadiums is what has kept me around. I do like to tinker with the game, making leagues and stuff, but I am slowly losing interest.

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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by therhino »

I too am slowly losing interest. The bugs make MFB hard to enjoy and knowing that it's final makes it hard to keep playing. If David would just come on here and fix the bugs I think I would play more often, but as it is I guess I will be playing less. 2.5 had so much promise&nbsp;and kept me playing, but now it's just hard to load up the game and play.&nbsp;
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Mykal
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Mykal »

ORIGINAL: garysorrell

Mbsports did a great job of summing things up.

I also have to say I am in a similar situation as redwolf1. I have definately drifted from the game. Making stadiums is what has kept me around. I do like to tinker with the game, making leagues and stuff, but I am slowly losing interest.

well thats the worst news I've heard since the official announcement
Gary, Redwolf & Rhino all drifting away, thats a big blow to the community
Stadium's (Gary & Rhino) & Uniforms (Redwolf) will be lost for everyone
that wont leave many of us left who actually make stuff for the community [:(]
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by mbsports »

What's keeping me in is that I like football a lot and MaxFB for all it's limitations is the only football sim that can do an Arena/Indoor style.&nbsp; There is no text based sim for that.&nbsp; There is no text based Canadian sim let alone any 3d.&nbsp; So the fact that it can get you 80% of the way there on things like that is what keeps me in.&nbsp; Some of my list are a little nit picky but can be lived with in their current state.&nbsp; Some of them such as the auto fumble 40% of the time is just kinda' silly that it was never noticed or addressed.&nbsp; Hopefully we see some little things but I won't hold my breath, I'm going to do everything I can to make it better in my universe even if that doesn't jive with what Max FB does... expect me to do something for positions that works outside of the system and works with my MadCat modifications, quite simply, we have to do whatever we can to get value out of it at this point and that's a tough call.
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garysorrell
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by garysorrell »

Well, i'm not gone, just not as involved as I have been. I will continue to make stadiums, and play solo stuff....and im in the MLF.
I'm doing other things a bit more now, but there is still time for MaxFB. I can't imagine not being a part of this community. Lot of good people here. And mbsports is correct. MaxFB is the only and best option for those of us that are not NFL fans only. But, my enthusiasm isnt what it was.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by Frido1207 »

That sounds waaayy better, gary.
I´m very pleased to see that we are not going to lose one of our backbone.
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by redwolf1 »

Well, I've gotten into texmodding Madden for my creative endeavors and just don't find myself playing MaxFB any more...may still pump out a fantasy team or two down the road, but I am uncertain of that..
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RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

Post by therhino »

ORIGINAL: redwolf1

Well, I've gotten into texmodding Madden for my creative endeavors and just don't find myself playing MaxFB anymore...my still pump out a fantasy team or two down the road, but I am uncertain of that..
If I wasn't a fan of indoor football I would most likely do the same, but right now that's what keeps me here.
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