Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Based on Atomic Games’ award-winning Close Combat series, Close Combat: Wacht am Rhein brings together the classic top-down tactical gameplay from the original series and plenty of new features, expansions, and improvements! The Wacht am Rhein remake comes with a brand new Grand Campaign including a new strategic map with 64 gorgeous hand-drawn tactical maps, over 70 scenarios, tons of new interface and unit graphics, countless engine improvements, and much more!
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by GoodGuy »

Well, I started to play CC when the very first installment was released, and I bought all the sequels as well, except for the last one (CC 4 or 5? heck i can't remember - which was the last "original" one?[:D]), and I had a lot of fun playing 'em, since they almost played like a "real" RTS (like Command and Conquer, etc), and even better - this series offered a really realistic approach regarding armor strength/penetration, suppression and morale/fatigue.

I didn't get COI as i thought it would "just" be a collection of mods and tweaks (dunno if that judgement was correct) and I didn't think a full price would be justified.

Anyway, when the first CC was released, I wasn't impressed with CC's cumbersome menu (as it wasn't like doing a single click [activate] and point [direct, go to] thing like in RTS games), but the implemented shortcuts made up for that, halfway.

Also, back then, i wasn't impressed with the movement, like let's say one of my tanks (with a regular rotatable turret) had spotted an enemy tank, it would not rotate the tank accurately (means it was jerky/choppy) in order to turn the (heavily armored) front of the vehicle towards the selected target, to have maximum protection.
To top it all, the gun kept flipping back for a sec, means it started to turn towards the enemy, but when the driver started to turn the vehicle, the gun swung back to the original spot it was pointing at, sometimes 45 degrees or even more. It shouldn't be like that. Let's say the tank makes a 90 degree turn to the left side to face a target, the gun should turn to the left with the same speed, or even faster if the turret is being turned as well.

Ok, back to the present. [:)] I bought CC WaR, especially since some of the maps/towns look like the real historical locations (I'm not sure how much time was invested to research them), and, since I live in Germany, close to the Eifel (a 1-hour-ride by car), where the Ardennes offensive had its FUP, I know quite some locations, maps and aerial photos.
So i thought it'd be fun to see how the armored units in the game would handle the rough terrain.

CC WaR still does these things I described above, though. Even worse, tanks don't turn their front towards enemy tanks anymore (correct me if i am wrong, but i think the original series did that at one or another point)

Pathfinding
  • The pathfinding still has some flaws. I'm not totally sure, but i tend to think that it wasn't such a hassle in the original installments to make vehicles cross a bridge:
    Vehicles: If you issue a single "move" or "move fast"-order and if you place that marker/waypoint at a point behind the bridge (without setting a path using several waypoints), the waypoint will be canceled, often, accompanied by a msg like "I can't go there". If you're lucky, after several attempts (since the waypoints keep being deleted), a given vehicle will move to the middle of the bridge, at least, if you put the waypoint right ON the bridge. Then you have to issue another order to get the particular unit off the bridge. If you are using multiple waypoints, you get better results, but only if the segments are put correctly (mostly placed on the middle of the road). Sometimes, it takes up to 20 mins to move a column of 6 tanks across a bridge.

    That's a real hassle. I thought I wouldn't have to dance with these kinda issues after all these years, oh well, to err is human.
Waypoints:
  • The waypoint-system is a cool feature, I can't remember whether it was part of one of the original installments or not. Thing is, let's say you want to drag/move one of your tank's existing waypoints, the whole set of waypoints will be deleted if another friendly vehicle moves/resides right under one of these waypoints. Cumbersome, unnecessary, frustrating... that should be addressed.
    Also, there seems to be a limit regarding the number of waypoints, but i couldn't find anything about that in the manual. Setting more than around 15 (?) waypoints would result in the whole set of points being deleted. There should be at least a system message/warning thingy to tell the player about the limit.

Other than that, the maps are nice, the motor/car pool as well (haven't seen Tigers or KingTigers in the game yet, though. Are there any?). If the game would feature realistic sizes of vehicles (compared to the size of inf/soldiers), the game would be even more fun. There's nothing like a KingTiger tank being drawn in original size blocking and defending some narrow alley in a small town. [:D] Also, it would be cool to have some cobble-stone roads in small towns, where a KingTiger, in combat movement (turning, accelerating all the time), would turn these roads into rubble and sink in, due to its weight. [:)]

Oh and yes, I'd appreciate a Zoom function on the strategic screen too, as mentioned by others.
Oh 1 more thing...
  • I don't seem to get what the COMMAND button does (next to the NEXT button, on the strategic screen. Let's say i didn't save and I hit this button accidentally, will i loose game progress, as it brings you back to the save game selection screen?
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
User avatar
Stwa
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:05 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Stwa »

Hi,

Interesting observations...

I would not be surprised if WaR originated from CC5. It would make complete sense for the developers to start there and then as they release new games, add additional content and features. If true, this is a good thing IMHO.

The new maps are sized like the CC5 maps, and this is good too. Even though I loved those CC4 maps, some of them were so small, that they played out pretty much the same way every game. With the larger maps replayability is much improved.

In CC4 and CC5 (and now WaR) tanks can and do block roads/tracks creating havoc when they do.

Maybe the developers have done some more work with pathfinding, but even if the game is really based on CC5, this isn't that big of a problem. IMHO, CC series works best when fewer vehicles are on the map at once. When a player or the AI brings a single tank into a game and you as a player don't have any tanks, then this makes the scenario very challenging, and you focus on eliminating that threat.
User avatar
Andrew Williams
Posts: 3862
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Andrew Williams »

From the manual "waypoints" section

You can place a total of 20 waypoints.

You will occassionally get "can't go there" but generally it is much improved over earlier releases

see this vid  Bridge croosing is a non event, usually

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/Setz/Setz.html
ImageImage
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
  • 1) I don't seem to get what the COMMAND button does (next to the NEXT button, on the strategic screen. Let's say i didn't save and I hit this button accidentally, will i loose game progress, as it brings you back to the save game selection screen?
Can anyone answer this question? [:)] Bear with me, I haven played CC for ages. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

From the manual "waypoints" section

You can place a total of 20 waypoints.
Oh ok, thank you, overlooked that :).
You will occassionally get "can't go there" but generally it is much improved over earlier releases

see this vid  Bridge croosing is a non event, usually

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/Setz/Setz.html

Well, try the same with a bigger tank (Panther) or don't set multiple waypoints ... place a single move order right behind the bridge, let's say right next to the word "Setz" - to the left, and you'll run into lotsa events. Sometimes a tank unit will turn and head to the river bank north or south on the same side (right river bank in this video), turn like a drunk driver and "search" for the bridge, lol. Kinda like that.

Question:
  • Can you speed up the movement of crews with AT guns? I mean, a "tiny" 57mm gun pulled by 4 or 5 troops should be able to move a bit faster. I think it would be more realistic if you'd change the speed of such units while reducing the time they can travel without being winded/fatigued. It feels like it takes an hour to move a distance of 50 meters, which is anything than realistic (imho).

Anyway, I really rediscovered my love for this series. [:)]
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by GoodGuy »

Oh one more observation:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but tanks don't seem to reload if they're idle - after destroying the last visible target. Once a new target has been spotted, the loader/gunner starts (or finishes, dunno) to reload. This results in heavy losses sometimes, as incoming enemy tanks seem to fire first, often.
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
Tejszd
Posts: 3466
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:32 pm

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Tejszd »

From what I can see tanks do reload the last type of ammo shot. Which if it was HE against infantry can cause you grief because if you come across a tank it will not be till your 2nd shot that AP is used.
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by GoodGuy »

yeah i just played another map, a few mins ago, you're right. Dang there should be a switch, so that the player can select the type of ammo before he engages enemy inf or tanks.
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
User avatar
Prince of Eckmühl
Posts: 2459
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:37 pm
Location: Texas

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

From the manual "waypoints" section

You can place a total of 20 waypoints.

You will occassionally get "can't go there" but generally it is much improved over earlier releases

see this vid  Bridge croosing is a non event, usually

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/Setz/Setz.html
I didn't think that the vehicle waypoints were gonna be that big a deal, but they DO INDEED resolve a lot of the pathing headaches that drove me up the wall with previous CC titles.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)
Government is the opiate of the masses.
dutch08
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:42 pm

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by dutch08 »

You think your pathfinding is bad, wait till you see the AI trying to move 4 Panthers near a bridge in the Grand Campaign in the 4th or 5th battle of Day 1. I feel like I'm fighting a battle against Col. Klink! (or whatever that guys name was)

The warts are still there, but, to be fair to Matrix, this isn't a CC:WAR issue, this go back to CC4 and I seriously doubt it's something Matrix can fix without a lot of time and energy. They might be able to improve it some, but not fix it outright. In the long run, it's no big deal. This is a better version of CC4 by far.

CaptRio
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by CaptRio »

wrong post
User avatar
Peter Fisla
Posts: 2520
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Canada

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Peter Fisla »

I'm on 3rd battle first day of campaign and everything is going well so far.. (human player: elite, AI: Novice) didn't loose a single vehicle yet; in all 3 battles I have taken the map. I drive my tanks like they are delivering eggs for the general :D Yeah AI vehicle pathfinding isn't great but it's good enough and certainly better than I have seen before. You really want to handle one vehicle at the time (in an area) otherwise the pathfinding gets confused. It's alright...
User avatar
Platoon_Michael
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Platoon_Michael »

Ive lost a few vehicles.
1 to a well hidded ATGun and several due to throwing a track and a broken wheel.
 
The maps look great,I really love the new wooded textures.
I actually lost one of my German half-track to the point where I had to zoom out to find it.
 
great job guys.
PDiFolco
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by PDiFolco »

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

yeah i just played another map, a few mins ago, you're right. Dang there should be a switch, so that the player can select the type of ammo before he engages enemy inf or tanks.

No, they should ALWAYS charge AP when being idle, as mortal threats that could appear are to be dealt with AP, as an AT-team can usually be disposed of with MGs, or be far enough to have time to switch to HE.
Not sure if there was regulations in the armored units but this really make sense !
PDF
User avatar
Platoon_Michael
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Platoon_Michael »

I notice that on the map South Eifel that it displays tree shadows on the zoomed out view while playing but not all of the maps do.

I also dont like how the strategic screen doesnt remember where I was last viewing from when previewing a map.It's like it jumps back to a default position every time.
Makes it very annoying since the viewing of the strat screen is already too small
User avatar
Platoon_Michael
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Platoon_Michael »

I notice the AI still has problems on maps when the water is codded "Deep"
Some tanks and troops just move in circles forever and dont move to a bridge or another area to cross.
Was Wiltz recoded?
I dont remember ever having LOS like this before.
I still see that some maps have the tree shadows and some dont when zooming out during gameplay.
I geuss it just dependded on who made what map.
It would be much better to have the shadows on all the maps,by having the shadows it makes it much easier to understand LOS on the zoomed out view.

Image
Attachments
UO0006.jpg
UO0006.jpg (355.16 KiB) Viewed 668 times
User avatar
Stwa
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:05 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Stwa »

Man, is it just me, or does that laser green clash with the olive green in a major way, or what? I keep expecting to look down and see Obiwan Kanobi or something... [:)]
User avatar
v.Manstein
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: London

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by v.Manstein »

It might be that the enemy (leader) is situated in a 4 storey building, therefore the 2 storey building isn't a hinderance to LOS. 
User avatar
Platoon_Michael
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Platoon_Michael »

I noticed during this battle that while on the zoomed out view of the map it shows that I have no LOS.
But when going back down to the game I do.

Image
Attachments
UO0017.jpg
UO0017.jpg (155.6 KiB) Viewed 666 times
User avatar
Platoon_Michael
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:14 am

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Platoon_Michael »

And when zoomed down

Image
Attachments
UO0018.jpg
UO0018.jpg (292.46 KiB) Viewed 666 times
Nomada_Firefox
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Spain
Contact:

RE: Impressions - Pathfinding/Maps

Post by Nomada_Firefox »

not was flamethower who coded many of the maps? I have seen many bad things of these on them. [8|]
Post Reply

Return to “Close Combat: Wacht am Rhein”