playable yet? Part II

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

Moderator: MOD_EIA

Post Reply
User avatar
borner
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Houston TX

playable yet? Part II

Post by borner »

I expect to get blasted by Matrix for this but.....

There have been two threads now - not counting this one - about the general feelings playes have about the quality of this game. They have been, by FAR, the most hit threads, and Matrix has shut both down. So, I am opening another one. For those of you that think we are just complaining to complain here, why don't you open a thread about how how playable and problem free the game is, and see how popular that threat gets.

Also, if a thread complaining about the quality of the product we have bought is against the policy of what is "allowed" on the forums, I would love to see a copy of that policy. I understand that once things start getting to personal insults people have crossed the line, but it seems that Matrix is looking for excuses to shut these threads down to try and limit the negatve comments about a product. Personally, the outlet to discuss these issues is the only thing that kept me from calling your company and demanding a refund.


by the way... newest issue, and I will post this in tech support for Marshall.. is I loaded 1.04. On my next turn, I save my land phase as Russia, post my turn to the other players who have done land phases, and when I load the "new" save file - that has a different name than the old one - but an expected change in 1.04, I am back to the start of my land phase!
pzgndr
Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 am
Location: Maryland

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by pzgndr »

I guess no horse is too dead to beat.  Whack away fellas. [8|]
 
 
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: borner

I expect to get blasted by Matrix for this but.....

There have been two threads now - not counting this one - about the general feelings playes have about the quality of this game. They have been, by FAR, the most hit threads, and Matrix has shut both down. So, I am opening another one. For those of you that think we are just complaining to complain here, why don't you open a thread about how how playable and problem free the game is, and see how popular that threat gets.

Also, if a thread complaining about the quality of the product we have bought is against the policy of what is "allowed" on the forums, I would love to see a copy of that policy. I understand that once things start getting to personal insults people have crossed the line, but it seems that Matrix is looking for excuses to shut these threads down to try and limit the negatve comments about a product. Personally, the outlet to discuss these issues is the only thing that kept me from calling your company and demanding a refund.


by the way... newest issue, and I will post this in tech support for Marshall.. is I loaded 1.04. On my next turn, I save my land phase as Russia, post my turn to the other players who have done land phases, and when I load the "new" save file - that has a different name than the old one - but an expected change in 1.04, I am back to the start of my land phase!
Warspite 1

I can see both side re the points made by Neverman and Pzgndr - but I suspect Erik closed down the thread recently because the posts stopped being about the game and started to get personal. So if you don`t want this closed too can I suggest you try and keep it a bit friendlier - please? [:-]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
borner
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Houston TX

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by borner »

I 100% agree. there is no place for personal insults in these threads. While I understand there may be some underage persons reading and posting here, I think the majority of us are over 18, some by more years than we care to admit, and we ALL need to act like it. I also think the general tone of the previous threat had gone from that the game was one step above a disaster, to one that while there were still serious issues and bugs to be sure, overall the patches had improved things.
User avatar
Jimmer
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Jimmer »

Didn't you READ? It was closed because some <fill in the blank> refused to restrict their comments to the debate, and kept making it personal.
&nbsp;
Because said people still haven't learned, I will not take part in this thread.
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
timewalker03
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:32 pm
Location: Omaha, NE

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by timewalker03 »

I frimly believe this is the best thread this board has. It allows the customer the chance to voice their opinion and offer when made some constructive criticism that Matrix should take but I realize they care very little. As we have seen the last week how companies run rampant when they are allowed to do business without consumer oversite. Some of the people on this board have probably lost money over that time from their retirement plans and maybe even from their pockets. I have to say especially now every consumer should be wary of any company that offers any service to people. This game a great example of how a vocal minority get their way and how a silent group becomes more vocal after the fact because they placed their trust in a company to "do the right thing". Because of this we have a game that is nowhere near finished because the ball was dropped by Matrix. Next Matrix is "Using" the consumer to playtest their product and using them to improve it without having to invest much. There are people who don't care about the whole picture here. There is more here than gaining a finished product. It shows how reliable a company is and what character it has by releasing a product that was way beneath sub-par. It shows they lack quality control in their production process, and it shows it should be put in the category of buyer beware. And yes this may be a niche game, but no matter what a company that puts profit before quality is a company that should not be trusted. And for those who are pleased with this game, think of this. Once this game stops making a profit, how much support will there be? As I learned with Max Football, it was a game that was supported by the designer, and when the desinger wanted to put out a for pay expansion, Matrix and David winter seemed to have parted ways. Hence Support for a good game is over. And that was a niche game also. That was a game heavily supported by the fans of the game. Take that as possible future. Support is only as good as the company giving it.
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39324
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Erik Rutins »

Let me be crystal clear. The previous thread was locked due to personal attacks among forum members, not due to feedback. We read, we listen and we support.
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
borner
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Houston TX

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by borner »

To be fair, I doubt that if Matrix got a bailout, they would use the money for expensive Spa treatments!!!!
User avatar
borner
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Houston TX

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by borner »

By the way.. Yes, Jimmer, I did read. However, I think that in any thread, if people cross the line and get into personal insults, those should be dealt with in a one off method by Matrix. As for some people not learning, if you are referring to those type of personal comments, I totally agree.
pzgndr
Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 am
Location: Maryland

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by pzgndr »

while there were still serious issues and bugs to be sure, overall the patches had improved things

Great point! For the sake of continued discussions about the general feelings players have about the quality of this game, it would be most helpful to focus on current issues and building concensus for ongoing improvements. That's a healthy debate. Continued rantings about past issues which have been discussed to no end and already fully acknowledged by Matrix staff and Marshall Ellis (many already resolved) are not at all helpful at this point. I mean really, what is Matrix supposed to do right now that they haven't already done? Nothing will undo what has been done, nothing will change the past. One would think wargamers could understand this simple concept, being at turn 15 and the situation is what it is, you have to do such and such to move on and win. Bitching about stuff that happened on turn 2 won't change anything. Maybe it makes some folks feel better to vent their unhappiness, but it still won't change anything right now. We all need to move on and eventually win by having a great game. That is the collective goal, yes? [8D]

Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
timewalker03
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:32 pm
Location: Omaha, NE

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by timewalker03 »

pzgndr no matter what you have to have some sort oversite in a project like this. Look at what happens when a company listens to a few people and enacts that, rather than taking what the overall majority wanted and still wants. EiA became EiH because of a few and it was few people made the suggestion to look into the rules for EiH. They then came in contact with I believe his name is Michael Treasure and from there the amoeba this game is was created. When it came down to it Matrix and Marshall took it upon themselves. Once the game was released they then realized that it really was not the popular choice. I do fully understand that EiA could not be a direct crossover. That is very obvious to anyone who played the board game. For those who have said using EiH to make up for historical accuracy of the game use that argument to make the case for EiH must realize there was some license taken by Avalon Hill originally to create a playable game. AH also through the Generals tried their best to make up for some of the games problems the original game had. And if you go all the way back to the first release of EiA you will recall all of the French infantry corps were 25I 3C. I remember my first game ever played where France had all corps maxed out and Charles lost 3 straight battles to the monster that was France. So this was a flawed board game. Also the best version of this game was the Naval Academy or was it Air Force Academy version of the game which streamlined a lot of the game and also made the game closer to accurate without changing game mechanics much. I have been burned by Matrix before with games, and I just hope furiously that it doesn't happen again. Right now things still do not look good.
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39324
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
Great point! For the sake of continued discussions about the general feelings players have about the quality of this game, it would be most helpful to focus on current issues and building concensus for ongoing improvements. That's a healthy debate. Continued rantings about past issues which have been discussed to no end and already fully acknowledged by Matrix staff and Marshall Ellis (many already resolved) are not at all helpful at this point. I mean really, what is Matrix supposed to do right now that they haven't already done? Nothing will undo what has been done, nothing will change the past.

Thanks, Pzgndr, I agree. That is not to say that criticism should stop, we learn from it and listen. But I think it would be refreshing if the arguments that have been made repeatedly by the same people and acknowledged by us could be laid to rest.
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
Jimmer
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Jimmer »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Thanks, Pzgndr, I agree. That is not to say that criticism should stop, we learn from it and listen. But I think it would be refreshing if the arguments that have been made repeatedly by the same people and acknowledged by us could be laid to rest.
Not "laid to rest" so much as "put on a back burner". While I don't necessarily agree, they definitely have the right to both their opinion AND the argument. However, there's a right time for such arguments, and it's not now (IMO).

By the way, since the title of this thread is "Playable yet...", I'll answer that part: Yes. It's not Civ V yet, and certainly not full EiA, but it's definitely playable. In fact, it's quite enjoyable. The AI is still not "good", but it has bypassed some humans with whom I have played FtF.
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
NeverMan
Posts: 1712
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:52 am

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by NeverMan »

This thread is pointless.

Matrix really doesn't care, that's the bottom line. I will never play another game made by this company. I will probably only finish out the EiANW games I have started and then I will be done. I will not playtest for this horrible company or report any bugs I find or give any feedback in any way simply because I don't believe that this company listens.

I agree that this company has used every excuse to get rid of threatening threads and has refused to sticky them after repeating asking. Matrix simply could have deleted the "personal" attack posts, still locked the thread and stickied it. Did they do that? No. Instead they agree with the person making personal attacks and defend that person. Why? Because that person is defending them and their product/company. All of this makes perfect "business" sense so good for them. I'm glad they are at least making some smart business decisions.
User avatar
borner
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Houston TX

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by borner »

Bottom line IMO is that there is a lot of fustration out there, both about the deisgn of the game, and how Matrix reacted to this at first. I do think the tone of the post here from the poeople at Matrix has become different over time. I think they know that releasing this game as a supposedly finished product, and the changes they made going away from EiA,&nbsp;&nbsp;were mistakes. Problem is, the feedback they were getting at the time pointed them this way, so now what happens? I think the game is close enough to EiA to be good eventually. I also think that to a certain extent, any release was going to have some bugs, given how complex things were, and the crying from the old threads to get it out NOW!!!! What put me off at first was the general tone of denial from Matrix, but again, that seems to have gotten better.
&nbsp;
There are still bugs, but the Host editor does help. (To use an old example I brought up in the last thread - the lost CAV corps- The host can at least replace my $. Not the greatest solution, but better than before.)&nbsp;
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39324
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Matrix really doesn't care, that's the bottom line. I will never play another game made by this company. I will probably only finish out the EiANW games I have started and then I will be done. I will not playtest for this horrible company or report any bugs I find or give any feedback in any way simply because I don't believe that this company listens.

I'm very sorry to read this. It is of course your prerogative to do whatever you think is right, but I can say that we do care and we do listen.

I don't see any attacks by pzgndr here, am I missing something? I do think that you and Timewalker could stand to relax a bit though. We've been honest about the mistakes we made on this game and have been working to correct them. When you continue to argue despite evidence to the contrary that we are not paying any attention to our customers, it starts to move from criticism into the realm of bashing.

Based on our last exchange, I thought you had understood that in fact we had faced up to the issues and were working to deal with the constructively. What happened to that?

The previous thread was locked solely because it was degenerating into personal attacks among forum members. You can check other forums, we do the same there when that happens, it has nothing to do with whether we are supporting a game or not.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39324
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Erik Rutins »

Oops. I went back to look at the older thread and saw that pzgndr was one of the posters making personal attacks there, which explains the comment by NeverMan, as pzgndr was attacking him. Unfortunately, I can't always keep every poster's name straight in my head and I did not recall all the forum poster names that were involved in that when I posted in this one. Too many forums, too many threads, apologies.

So to be clear, my response to pzgndr here was strictly because I agreed with his point in this thread and did not in any way indicate any support for his behavior in the previous thread. Personal attacks are off limits.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
Cunctator
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:12 pm
Location: Italy

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Cunctator »

My only goal is to play Empires in Arms (or in harm or a weird mix of both).
I don't care if matrix really is using his customers to playtest this game, because, as I said before, I just want to play this game and I don't care of the rest.
I waited for years this game.
So now I want to play it.
It could have been better, but unfortunately human race is not perfect.
All I see is that every day one small centimeter (or inch if you prefer) is conquered along the way leading to perfection.
I'm currently playing 4 PBEM games; one is in 1807, one in 1806 and the others are alive and kicking in 1805.
To the question on playability I would answer : yes it is playable.... buggy, but playable.
AI is still a tutorial-level challenge for any human player that can use it to learn the game or the interface.
On this side many improvements are to be expected, but this game is based on diplomacy, and AI will never be a real challenge for anybody.
This game is made for Pbem or (in the future) for Tcp/Ip.
Ave

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.
pzgndr
Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 am
Location: Maryland

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by pzgndr »

When you continue to argue despite evidence to the contrary that we are not paying any attention to our customers, it starts to move from criticism into the realm of bashing.

Erik, you are starting to recognize the true problem here.
Matrix really doesn't care, that's the bottom line. I will never play another game made by this company. I will probably only finish out the EiANW games I have started and then I will be done. I will not playtest for this horrible company or report any bugs I find or give any feedback in any way simply because I don't believe that this company listens.

This has been Neverman's fundamental attitude for quite some time, now clearly stated by himself. Most of us here fully recognize all of the problems and issues with the game, and for the most part are gritting our teeth but continuing to help move this game forward. It takes time. Unfortunately a few do not share a positive optimistic attitude and persist in dragging the forum discussions down into the gutter.
I went back to look at the older thread and saw that pzgndr was one of the posters making personal attacks there, which explains the comment by NeverMan, as pzgndr was attacking him.

A definition of whining is: to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way. There is a difference between making a statement of fact and making a personal attack. Erik, since you consider my posts to be attacks, I apologize and will refrain from responding to whiners from now on. As Neverman says, it's pointless. How Matrix deals with the obvious bashing is up to you guys. Good luck. I'll go back to playing EiA for a while. [:)]
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
User avatar
Jimmer
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: playable yet? Part II

Post by Jimmer »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
... When you continue to argue despite evidence to the contrary that we are not paying any attention to our customers, it starts to move from criticism into the realm of bashing.

...

The previous thread was locked solely because it was degenerating into personal attacks among forum members. You can check other forums, we do the same there when that happens, it has nothing to do with whether we are supporting a game or not.

Regards,

- Erik
What you might want to do to facilitate people understanding this concept (that you lock threads for personal attacks) is have a person not involved with the game or game discussion be responsible for locking the threads. This would be tough, because that person would have to answer "reported posts" on a product he/she doesn't work with. But, if that were done, then there could be very little argument that the locking was done to shut people up.

Having been involved in various forums for a long time, I've seen a tendency for the forum users to attack a the person who locked the thread as being partial to one side or the other (usually the opposite to the one that person holds). Even normally excellent posters can somehow be dragged down by a series of bad posts. Frequently, it's not even possible to determine "who started it" (as if we're sixth graders).

I've been caught in it myself, and it's hard to recognize when one is posting. What I've always tried to do (usually after being prompted by another poster or a moderator) is take a short break (a few minutes) and reevaluate. It's amazing that something that took days or weeks to build up can be eliminated in only a few minutes. But, it's not always easy, even though short.

Putting in an "impartial" moderator helps by making it clear that the person making the decision to lock a thread is NOT one of the participants, and also is NOT emotionally tied to the discussion (i.e. by being part of the team that supports the product). In other words, that person has an insulator around himself as regards THIS game (he may very well be involved in OTHER games; just not the one in question).

Make sense?
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
Post Reply

Return to “Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815”