ASL worth it?

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damezzi
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ASL worth it?

Post by damezzi »

I was browsing through some sites, trying to find a good tactical level game and came through ASL frequently, most of the time exalted by those who made comments. Well, it's a tradicional board game and I live in a country in which hex-based boadgames aren't a part of the culture, so, not only I won't be able to find opponents to play ftf, but also I really don't know the dynamics of board hex games.
I have read that the learning curve is steep; I've also read about VASL and the possibility to play online.
I want to know if it is worth buying it and going through the rules, or is it already outdated? Does it work well playing through the internet using VASL?
The reason I place this question here is that I like games with the complexity and dynamics of TOAW, but really don't know anything about tradicional hex-based boardgames, but would like to find a good one on the tactical level. What are your impressions on ASL?
BoredStiff
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by BoredStiff »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

I live in a country in which hex-based boadgames aren't a part of the culture
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Neilster
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

I was browsing through some sites, trying to find a good tactical level game and came through ASL frequently, most of the time exalted by those who made comments. Well, it's a tradicional board game and I live in a country in which hex-based boadgames aren't a part of the culture, so, not only I won't be able to find opponents to play ftf, but also I really don't know the dynamics of board hex games.
I have read that the learning curve is steep; I've also read about VASL and the possibility to play online.
I want to know if it is worth buying it and going through the rules, or is it already outdated? Does it work well playing through the internet using VASL?
The reason I place this question here is that I like games with the complexity and dynamics of TOAW, but really don't know anything about tradicional hex-based boardgames, but would like to find a good one on the tactical level. What are your impressions on ASL?
Check out Combat Mission:Barbarossa to Berlin and Combat Mission:Afrika Korps. Combat Mission had its genesis as a computer version of ASL. It's 3D, you can play online or against a computer opponent and they're excellent games, if getting a little long in the tooth. There is a successor series coming too.

Cheers, Neilster


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Cheers, Neilster
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Brigz
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Brigz »

I've been playing ASL on a regular basis since it first came out. (About 25 to 30 years?)
It takes a lot of commitment and time. The rules are much, much more complex than TOAW. It is also very expensive to own the entire set of modules, although you don't have to own the whole system. You might consider trying the Starter Kits offered by MMP (Multiman Publishing - the people who are licensed to publish official ASL.)

Don't get me wrong. It's a great game but if you want to really enjoy it and play it well then you have to make a commitment to learning the rules and playing the game on a regular basis. It isn't an easy game to play but it is a heck of a lot of fun.

Basically the world is composed of two types of gamers. Gamers who hate ASL and gamers who love it.
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GJK
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by GJK »

Get the ASL Starter Kit(s) (#1 through #3). They break down the ASL rules by leaving out the extra "chrome" that is not needed for the included scenarios. Five or six years ago, when SK#1 was released, that is how I got back into boardgaming. I soon found VASL as well and some friendly folks on there that would help teach me the SK and ASL basics. It's not outdated, it's not impossible to learn and it's a hell of a lot of fun, even online (more so ftf with others, but online with a microphone and on VASL is pretty good too).

SK#1 is currently out of stock (see: http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/aslsk.php ) however it should be back in stock soon. You may be able to find copies of it on ebay however. SK#2 is in stock and includes the rules from SK#1 but adds some more to them (they are distinguished from the SK#1 rules).

The ASL community is large (well, for a boardgame - it's a good sized community that frequent a couple of other forums) and the game is still considered the "king" of tactical wargaming.

By the way, I love the Combat Mission games as well (visit one of my websites for them to see), but given a choice today, it's ASL over CM - I'm just so much more involved with each piece that is on the map instead of having a computer doing stuff for me.
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Adam Parker
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Adam Parker »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

I was browsing through some sites, trying to find a good tactical level game... I want to know if it is worth buying it and going through the rules, or is it already outdated?.... What are your impressions on ASL?

There are quite a few alternatives now with a bit of a more modern pedigree:

1. Lock n' Load - by Mark Walker http://www.locknloadgame.com/

2. Combat Commander - GMT Games http://www.gmtgames.com/p-230-combat-co ... print.aspx

3. Conflict of Heroes - Academy Games http://www.conflictofheroes.com/

4. Tide of Iron - Fantasy Games (little Axis and Allies type minatures) http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/tideofiron.html


I own ASL (loved it when it came out) but for an easy to learn game in which infantry, armor, arty and air can be played in your very first scenario, Lock and Load is a stand out in design - I could never do that with ASL. Just expect lots and lots of informational markers on the map
Marauders
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Marauders »

I didn't play ASL.  I had too much of my high school job money tied up in the original Squad Leader, Cross of Iron, and Crescendo of Doom.
 
Yeah, it was always fun to read, "disregard rule 344.1b as 566.11c supercedes it."  Crazy mind blowing stuff like that. [:)]
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Peter Fisla
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Peter Fisla »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

I was browsing through some sites, trying to find a good tactical level game and came through ASL frequently, most of the time exalted by those who made comments. Well, it's a tradicional board game and I live in a country in which hex-based boadgames aren't a part of the culture, so, not only I won't be able to find opponents to play ftf, but also I really don't know the dynamics of board hex games.
I have read that the learning curve is steep; I've also read about VASL and the possibility to play online.
I want to know if it is worth buying it and going through the rules, or is it already outdated? Does it work well playing through the internet using VASL?
The reason I place this question here is that I like games with the complexity and dynamics of TOAW, but really don't know anything about tradicional hex-based boardgames, but would like to find a good one on the tactical level. What are your impressions on ASL?

Since Steel Panthers and Close Combat series I didn't find anything in PC wargames field that would really interest me deeply. Yes Combat Mission is a pretty good wargame but the series just didn't do it for me (various reasons). I have been looking for, ever since Steel Panthers; for something with scope of SP, same big selection of weapons/vehicles, dynamic campaigns, tactical level wargame and I just didn't find it. So one day in October of 2005 I was browsing the net and came upon MMP site and ASL. I noticed that yes the rulebook was expensive as well as the modules...however I also noticed that I could buy ASL Starter Kit #1 (infantry) for just mere $25 which would give me the light version of the rulebook, 2 maps and counters enough to play 6 scenarios. And I figured, here was much chance to have look at ASL with spending too much money. So I received my order of ASLSK #1 and started to read the rules. Within a day I have ordered full ASL Rulebook, yanks module, pre-ordered Beyond Valor 3rd edition. I was blown away by the quality and depth of the game play. Yes the full ASL rulebook is written more as a rule reference than a training guide but with ASLSK rulebook the core of the ASL rules was now much easier to learn. Besides ASL has a huge following, it's been around for 25+ years so the rules are pretty much in great shape. Why I love ASL? Well it's all about the game play and not about the graphics flash. I'm a tactical wargamer and ASL gives me a lot to offer. There is a huge selection of scenarios out there (about 3000+ just from AH/MMP alone never mind few thousand more from other 3rd parties) there are great historical campaigns out there like Red Barricades, Valor of the Guards, Kampfgruppe Piper I && II just to name a few. You can now play ASL on-line using VASL (www.VASL.org which is for free) and there is a lot of people out there that play ASL so it's easy to meet other ASL players. ASL also as an interesting module called Solitaire ASL (unfortunately out of print, but a copy can be found on ebay or other ways) which allows to play ASL solo...I love this module!.

Jay Richardson, wrote amazing Tutorials for ASLSK players that teach how to play ASLSK...I suggest to take a look:

ASLSK Tutorial #1:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157922

ASLSK Tutorial #2:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/166941

ASLSK Tutorial #3:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/169542

ASLSK Tutorial #4:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/177157

ASLSK Tutorial #5 - Vehicles is coming soon, I heard.

Check out http://www.boardgamegeek.com ASL forum or Gamesquad.com ASL forum for more...

I love ASL and it's my #1 tactical wargame system. It has all I want from tactical wargame, its been around for a while so you know the rules are polished and with ASL you can fight on any WW2 tactical battlefield you can imagine. It has huge selection of weapons and vehicles...lots of historical campaigns to choose from...really I can't ask for more.

Peter

PS: I'm actually working on a PC version of ASLSK for free...I currently have the infantry/support weapons/ordnance/AI implemented for German/Russian/American/British nationalities. I'm currently working on vehicles...after that I will work on campaigns.
damezzi
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by damezzi »

Thank you all. I think I'll buy the starter kit to get a feel of it.
 
Neilster, in what concerns combat mission, I bought Berlin to Barbarossa a while ago and it almost didn't leave the drawer. I run a kind of test after buying any game: I just push all my forces foward without even knowing the rules, using the highest difficulty level and see if the AI can, at least, present some resistance. I have done it in combat mission 3 times and was just able to pass through the AI forces easily. Maybe I had badluck choosing the scenarios, but this kind of thing makes me hesitate when facing the manual. Is the AI better in more recent versions? I have never really seen a good AI in any wargame, but some can at least put a challenge in unballanced scenarios. Do you recommend the last version of combat mission in terms of challenge?
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Neilster
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

Thank you all. I think I'll buy the starter kit to get a feel of it.

Neilster, in what concerns combat mission, I bought Berlin to Barbarossa a while ago and it almost didn't leave the drawer. I run a kind of test after buying any game: I just push all my forces foward without even knowing the rules, using the highest difficulty level and see if the AI can, at least, present some resistance. I have done it in combat mission 3 times and was just able to pass through the AI forces easily. Maybe I had badluck choosing the scenarios, but this kind of thing makes me hesitate when facing the manual. Is the AI better in more recent versions? I have never really seen a good AI in any wargame, but some can at least put a challenge in unballanced scenarios. Do you recommend the last version of combat mission in terms of challenge?
The AI in both is similar although it's better in Afrika Korps. Generally it is much better in defence than attack. You probably just got lucky. With even forces, that tactic will generally result in a severe loss. I'd try it again playing properly. Remember, you can always play a human opponent too.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
damezzi
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by damezzi »

OK, but suppose I choose my tactics cautiosly, will the AI present present a challenge, at least in some scenarios?

What about third party scenarios? Are there a large or reduced number of them?
damezzi
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by damezzi »

PS: I'm actually working on a PC version of ASLSK for free...I currently have the infantry/support weapons/ordnance/AI implemented for German/Russian/American/British nationalities. I'm currently working on vehicles...after that I will work on campaigns.


Have you any estimate to how long will it take?

What makes ASL difficult to learn? number of rules or the need to micro-manage? Because I really don't like games in which the ONLY challenge is to micro-manage (even if I like to micro-manage). I make this question because I can't imagine a solitaire game without an intelligence on the opposite side. So, maybe the great challenge in ASL is micro-management...? I suppose I'm wrong, but just want to be sure.
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GJK
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by GJK »

damezzi,

What I'd recommend is installing VASL, and then get online and look for rooms where people are playing. Join a room and then politely ask if you may "sync" to their game (to view it). Then, just sit back and read their text chat and watch. You will get some good insight as to how the game plays and how players interact with one another. That may help you with the decision on whether or not to pursue ASL-SK. The rules aren't that difficult; there is some overhead though - various die roll modifiers that apply in various situations for example. However, after you think about it, it's all intuitive..."of course there's a modifier for doing that because it's.....".

For Combat Mission, the AI is not going to put up a very good fight in many scenarios. It will defend fine in some, but you can often beat it. The most enjoyable way to play CM is via Pbem (IMHO) with another human.

See my websites for scenarios and chat:
http://www.the-proving-grounds.com (scenario testing)
http://www.the-scenario-depot.com (scenario archive)

Admins: delete my links if those are inappropriate here.
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Peter Fisla
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Peter Fisla »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

PS: I'm actually working on a PC version of ASLSK for free...I currently have the infantry/support weapons/ordnance/AI implemented for German/Russian/American/British nationalities. I'm currently working on vehicles...after that I will work on campaigns.


Have you any estimate to how long will it take?

What makes ASL difficult to learn? number of rules or the need to micro-manage? Because I really don't like games in which the ONLY challenge is to micro-manage (even if I like to micro-manage). I make this question because I can't imagine a solitaire game without an intelligence on the opposite side. So, maybe the great challenge in ASL is micro-management...? I suppose I'm wrong, but just want to be sure.

My game engine is targeted to ASL fans...so you will still need ASL rulebook to understand what and why things happen during a game. ASLSK is easy it's only about 10 pages of rules. Full ASL rules are about 300 pages...but that's because it covers every possible tactical engagement around the world so ETO, Afrika and Pacific, and it has a lot more chrome. ASLSK is the core of the rules....so once you know ASLSK you will know the core of ASL. And then you just add more stuff. Take a look at those ASLSK scenarios links I provided above. It took me about 3 years to get where I'm today, I can right now play a scenario with infantry/support weapons (example machine guns, flame throwers, demo charges, anti-tank rifles, light mortars 50mm/60mm) as well ordnance (AT/INF/ART/AA guns) against computer. I spent about 7 months alone writing AI and that's still the first serious look at the AI. Once I will implement vehicles (tanks/assault guns/TD/armored cars) I will have another serious look at my AI again...

PS: Here is more information about my project, mind you this thread is 2 years old (there is more further in that thread):
tm.asp?m=1280844&mpage=1&key=XASL
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Kuokkanen »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

I was browsing through some sites, trying to find a good tactical level game and came through ASL frequently
You know, there are plenty of other decent tactical level wargames. That is, if you can consider scifi/fantasy themes acceptable. BattleTech's newest edition has been made more friendly for newcomers, and there are even cost-free PDF rules and other material available. Take a peek at Leap Into the Action!!! page, and Introductory Rulebook. Should give you some idea about the game before you start spending for it.
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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Neilster
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

OK, but suppose I choose my tactics cautiosly, will the AI present present a challenge, at least in some scenarios?

What about third party scenarios? Are there a large or reduced number of them?
It will pose a reasonable challenge, especially in defence.

There are very many third party scenarios.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
damezzi
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by damezzi »

Peter,
I've installed Vasl and tried to watch some games, but I had a hardtime trying to figure out what was going on. Since you are programming a PC version, can you tell me what is so special about this game? Why people say LnL isn't as good as ASL? Is it realism, tactics variations, micromanagement? What makes ASL such a popular game? It's playability, it's flexibility, the realism? I really wasn't able to figure it out from watching those games, since I wasn't able to understand it.
In what aspects is LnL shallower than ASL? I don't want to know which game is best, but what makes them different gaming experience.
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Peter Fisla
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RE: ASL worth it?

Post by Peter Fisla »

ORIGINAL: damezzi

Peter,
I've installed Vasl and tried to watch some games, but I had a hardtime trying to figure out what was going on. Since you are programming a PC version, can you tell me what is so special about this game? Why people say LnL isn't as good as ASL? Is it realism, tactics variations, micromanagement? What makes ASL such a popular game? It's playability, it's flexibility, the realism? I really wasn't able to figure it out from watching those games, since I wasn't able to understand it.
In what aspects is LnL shallower than ASL? I don't want to know which game is best, but what makes them different gaming experience.

damezzi,

From my point of view: Check out the ASLSK tutorials I mentioned above, they give you an idea what ASL is all about. If you get a feeling that ASL is something you might be interested in: I would recommend you get ASLSK #3 - it's not expensive($24 I think). Then either use the real counter and maps or use VASL and follow Jay's tutorials - they are really good to see if you like it or not.

I did take a look at LnL, ATS (Advanced Tobruk System by Critical Hit) and ASL and decided to go with ASL because I was looking for a deep tactical wargame system that it's been around for a while (meaning the rules were not going through major changes anymore) and had a large list of weapons/ordnance/vehicles to choose from. Having good quality campaign modules was also very important for me. So After spending some time with ASLSK (cost me about $18), I have found out that ASL is what I'm looking for. ASL has a large wargaming community, it's not difficult to find someone on-line to play with or to teach you ASL. I don't know exactly how many ASL scenarios are out there but at 3000 for official Avalon Hill/MMP scenarios alone without even thinking about a huge selection of 3rd party scenarios.

I also like ATS, however the rules are still in some form of development/tweaking. The vehicle rules are quite nice but the infantry system is not as deep as ASL. I'm just getting myself into ATS (slowly) but my primary focus is without doubt ASL.

I don't know much about LnL, I know it's relatively new system. I did read the rulebook and watched shockwave demo of LnL gameplay. For me it doesn't have the depth of either ASL or ATS and there are not that many LnL modules out there to play with. However maybe you can check it out...it depends what you are looking for.

PS: Another small thing, ASL actually has true solitaire module called SASL - Solitaire ASL, though this module is currently out of print (it's hard to get but not impossible). This was also a key factor for me, when I chose ASL.

More information about ASLSK#1
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9823

From that page you can go to ASLSK #2 OR #3 or to full ASL...or you can look up ATS or LnL and ask people for their opinion...


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