AI for MWIF - Greece
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
AI for MWIF - Greece
Greece setup AI
Greece Forces
4-3 INF, 4-4 MTN, RES 3-2 MIL,1942 5-4 MTN, 1 Naval unit, 10 CP
Greece have four basic setups:
* Capital defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where the all Greek
land forces is setup on or close to Athen, trying to defend both the capital from invasion/paradrop.
* Border defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where all the Greek
land forces as set a blocking force against advance of land units, slowly retreating back to the capital if necessary.
* Rear defence: The Greek land forces are setup on Athen and as blocking force, trying to defend both the capital from invasion/paradrop and stop the advance of land units.
* Southern costal defence: The Greek land forces are setup on or close the cost guarding against an Invasion from the Italian Coast or East Mediterranean sea.
Greece has one extreme setup:
* Marauder defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where the one or two of the Greek units is set up to raise mayhem before Greece is beaten. Albania and Bulgaria are the possible targets.
Declaration of war
Given a CW declaration of war (with or without FR/US) and GE/IT control of Greece or a IT declaration of war with or without GE and CW control of Greece suggested reasoning for the AI could be as below.
Threats to guard against:
* Threat of minor paradrop close to/on Athen
* Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen
* Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
* Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen
* Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast
* Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
* Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
Good hopes:
* Chance of intervention from controlling power
Extreme Good hopes:
* Chance to try to conquer Bulgaria
* Chance to try to conquer Albania
* Chance to try to block Bulgaria resources and/or Iraq oil
* Chance to try to step on facedown unit(s)
Threat of minor paradrop close to/on to Athen:
IF the Weather is Storm or Blizzard the no risk of paradrop
IF any of the countries at war has a:
Organized ATR AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the ATR has range to Olso or can be put in range of it AND
there is a organized PARA AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the PARA has range to ATR or can be put in range of it AND
the PARA and the ATR belongs to countries that can cooperate AND
a maximum of two divisions or one corp can be paradropped AND
the chance of a successful paradrop is > 20 %
THEN
There is threat of a minor paradrop close to/on Athen
Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen:
Same as Threat of a paradrop close to/on Athen, but the size of the paradropped force
exceeds two divisions or one corp.
Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
IF the Weather is not Fine or Rain then there is no risk of invasion
IF any of the countries at war has a:
Organized TRS/AMPH/SCS AND one of A or B
A)
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
it has range to East Mediterranean the AND
there is a organized LandUnit AND
the LandUnit it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the LandUnit and the transporting unit can cooperate AND
the transporting unit can transport the LandUnit AND
the LandUnit can invade from the transporting unit AND
the LandUnit is on a costal hex East Mediterranean OR stack with the transporting unit
a maximum of two divisions or one corp can be invaded AND
the chance of a successful invasion is > 20 %
B)
It’s in the East Mediterranean the AND
there is a organized LandUnit stack with the transporting unit AND
the LandUnit can invade from the transporting unit
the chance of a successful invasion is > 20 %
THEN
There is threat of an minor invasion close to/on Athen
Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen:
Same as Threat of a minor invasion close to/on Athen, but the size of the invading force exceeds two divisions or one corp.
Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast:
Same as Threat of a major invasion close to/on Athen, but the sea area is the Italian Coast.
Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast:
Same as Threat of a minor invasion close to/on Athen, but the sea area is the Italian Coast.
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Albania or controls Albania) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
it’s in Albania AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Yugoslavia or controls Yugoslavia) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
it’s in Yugoslavia AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Bulgaria or controls Bulgaria or Conquered Turkey or controls Turkey) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
(it’s in Turkey or Bulgaria) AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
IF any of the countries at war can align Bulgaria
THEN
There is threat of Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
When a setup is used
* The Border defence
Is consider to be used when A and B and C
A) No Risk of any type of paradrop close to/on the capital
B) No Risk of any type of invasion close to/on the capital
C) No Risk of any type of invasion from the Italian Sea
* Southern costal defence
Is consider to be used when anyone of A or B or C and none of D,E,F,G,H,I,J
A) Risk of minor paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of minor of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of minor of invasion from the Italian Sea
D) Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen
E) Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen
F) Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast
G) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
H) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
I) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
J) Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
* Rear defence
Is consider to be used when none of A or B or C and one of D,E,F,G,H,I,J
A) Risk of major paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of major of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of major of invasion from the Italian Sea
D) Threat of minor paradrop close to/on Athen
E) Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
F) Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast
G) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
H) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
I) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
J) Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
* The Capital defence
Is consider to be used when one of A,B,C or when the AI wants
A) Risk of major paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of major of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of major of invasion from the Italian Sea
--Extreme setup
* The Maruder defence
Is consider to be used when X and one of A,B,C and D or E,F,G and H or I,J,K and L or M,N,O,P and Q
-- Try to conquer Albania,
A) Albania is controlled/conquered by the Axis
B) There is no axis unit in Tirana
C) the Greece MTN can reach Tirana in one impulse
D) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controlling Tirana
-- Try to conquer Bulgaria ,
E) Bulgaria is controlled/conquered by the Axis
F) There is no axis unit in Sofia
G) The Greece MTN can reach Sofia in one impulse
D) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controlling Sofia
--Try to step on facedown unit(s)
I) There is a disorganized axis fleet/air/Supply unit(s) with out a land unit guarding it
J) The Greece MTN can reach it in one impulse
K) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controls the disorganized unit
L) The Greece MTN can enter the country/territory that the disorganized unit is located in
-- Try capture a the Bulgarian resource and cut of Iraq oil
M) Bulgaria is controlled/conquered by the Axis
N) The Mountain resource in Rhodope MTN is in axis control
O) The Greece MTN can reach the hex in one impulses
P) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major controlling Sofia
Q) The axis can only use Bulgarian railroad to transport the Iraq oil home
-- No way of stopping the MTN
X) The axies can’t directly rail/move or transport a unit to the hex that the MTN want to reach and they can’t block the MTNs movement and the chance of a successful ground strike on MTN it is less than 30 %
Convoy points and Naval unit setup
During an Axis declaration of war:
If the axis has threat of a land advance or can activate Bulgaria
Lemnos, 4 CP
Heraklion 4 CP
Athens SCS+,2CP
Else
Salonica 2 CP
Lemnos 4 CP
Heraklion 2 CP
Athens SCS+,2CP
During a CW/FR/US declaration of war:
Corfu SCS + 2 CP
Patrai 4 CP
Athens 2 CP
Salonica 2 CP
Greece Forces
4-3 INF, 4-4 MTN, RES 3-2 MIL,1942 5-4 MTN, 1 Naval unit, 10 CP
Greece have four basic setups:
* Capital defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where the all Greek
land forces is setup on or close to Athen, trying to defend both the capital from invasion/paradrop.
* Border defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where all the Greek
land forces as set a blocking force against advance of land units, slowly retreating back to the capital if necessary.
* Rear defence: The Greek land forces are setup on Athen and as blocking force, trying to defend both the capital from invasion/paradrop and stop the advance of land units.
* Southern costal defence: The Greek land forces are setup on or close the cost guarding against an Invasion from the Italian Coast or East Mediterranean sea.
Greece has one extreme setup:
* Marauder defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where the one or two of the Greek units is set up to raise mayhem before Greece is beaten. Albania and Bulgaria are the possible targets.
Declaration of war
Given a CW declaration of war (with or without FR/US) and GE/IT control of Greece or a IT declaration of war with or without GE and CW control of Greece suggested reasoning for the AI could be as below.
Threats to guard against:
* Threat of minor paradrop close to/on Athen
* Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen
* Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
* Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen
* Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast
* Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
* Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
* Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
Good hopes:
* Chance of intervention from controlling power
Extreme Good hopes:
* Chance to try to conquer Bulgaria
* Chance to try to conquer Albania
* Chance to try to block Bulgaria resources and/or Iraq oil
* Chance to try to step on facedown unit(s)
Threat of minor paradrop close to/on to Athen:
IF the Weather is Storm or Blizzard the no risk of paradrop
IF any of the countries at war has a:
Organized ATR AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the ATR has range to Olso or can be put in range of it AND
there is a organized PARA AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the PARA has range to ATR or can be put in range of it AND
the PARA and the ATR belongs to countries that can cooperate AND
a maximum of two divisions or one corp can be paradropped AND
the chance of a successful paradrop is > 20 %
THEN
There is threat of a minor paradrop close to/on Athen
Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen:
Same as Threat of a paradrop close to/on Athen, but the size of the paradropped force
exceeds two divisions or one corp.
Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
IF the Weather is not Fine or Rain then there is no risk of invasion
IF any of the countries at war has a:
Organized TRS/AMPH/SCS AND one of A or B
A)
it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
it has range to East Mediterranean the AND
there is a organized LandUnit AND
the LandUnit it’s in supply or can be put in supply AND
the LandUnit and the transporting unit can cooperate AND
the transporting unit can transport the LandUnit AND
the LandUnit can invade from the transporting unit AND
the LandUnit is on a costal hex East Mediterranean OR stack with the transporting unit
a maximum of two divisions or one corp can be invaded AND
the chance of a successful invasion is > 20 %
B)
It’s in the East Mediterranean the AND
there is a organized LandUnit stack with the transporting unit AND
the LandUnit can invade from the transporting unit
the chance of a successful invasion is > 20 %
THEN
There is threat of an minor invasion close to/on Athen
Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen:
Same as Threat of a minor invasion close to/on Athen, but the size of the invading force exceeds two divisions or one corp.
Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast:
Same as Threat of a major invasion close to/on Athen, but the sea area is the Italian Coast.
Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast:
Same as Threat of a minor invasion close to/on Athen, but the sea area is the Italian Coast.
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Albania or controls Albania) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
it’s in Albania AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Yugoslavia or controls Yugoslavia) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
it’s in Yugoslavia AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
IF any of the countries at war has (Conquered Bulgaria or controls Bulgaria or Conquered Turkey or controls Turkey) AND
it has a organized LandUnit AND
(it’s in Turkey or Bulgaria) AND
it’s fast moving (reach the Athen in two impulses) AND
it’s in supply or can be put in supply or can be reorganized after moving
THEN
There is threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
IF any of the countries at war can align Bulgaria
THEN
There is threat of Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
When a setup is used
* The Border defence
Is consider to be used when A and B and C
A) No Risk of any type of paradrop close to/on the capital
B) No Risk of any type of invasion close to/on the capital
C) No Risk of any type of invasion from the Italian Sea
* Southern costal defence
Is consider to be used when anyone of A or B or C and none of D,E,F,G,H,I,J
A) Risk of minor paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of minor of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of minor of invasion from the Italian Sea
D) Threat of major paradrop close to/on Athen
E) Threat of major invasion close to/on Athen
F) Threat of major invasion from Italian Coast
G) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
H) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
I) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
J) Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
* Rear defence
Is consider to be used when none of A or B or C and one of D,E,F,G,H,I,J
A) Risk of major paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of major of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of major of invasion from the Italian Sea
D) Threat of minor paradrop close to/on Athen
E) Threat of minor invasion close to/on Athen
F) Threat of minor invasion from Italian Coast
G) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Albania
H) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Yugoslavia
I) Threat of a land advance toward Athen from Bulgaria/Turkey
J) Threat of a Bulgarian involvement
* The Capital defence
Is consider to be used when one of A,B,C or when the AI wants
A) Risk of major paradrop close to/on the capital
B) Risk of major of invasion close to/on the capital
C) Risk of major of invasion from the Italian Sea
--Extreme setup
* The Maruder defence
Is consider to be used when X and one of A,B,C and D or E,F,G and H or I,J,K and L or M,N,O,P and Q
-- Try to conquer Albania,
A) Albania is controlled/conquered by the Axis
B) There is no axis unit in Tirana
C) the Greece MTN can reach Tirana in one impulse
D) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controlling Tirana
-- Try to conquer Bulgaria ,
E) Bulgaria is controlled/conquered by the Axis
F) There is no axis unit in Sofia
G) The Greece MTN can reach Sofia in one impulse
D) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controlling Sofia
--Try to step on facedown unit(s)
I) There is a disorganized axis fleet/air/Supply unit(s) with out a land unit guarding it
J) The Greece MTN can reach it in one impulse
K) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major power controls the disorganized unit
L) The Greece MTN can enter the country/territory that the disorganized unit is located in
-- Try capture a the Bulgarian resource and cut of Iraq oil
M) Bulgaria is controlled/conquered by the Axis
N) The Mountain resource in Rhodope MTN is in axis control
O) The Greece MTN can reach the hex in one impulses
P) The allied major power controlling Greece is at war with axis major controlling Sofia
Q) The axis can only use Bulgarian railroad to transport the Iraq oil home
-- No way of stopping the MTN
X) The axies can’t directly rail/move or transport a unit to the hex that the MTN want to reach and they can’t block the MTNs movement and the chance of a successful ground strike on MTN it is less than 30 %
Convoy points and Naval unit setup
During an Axis declaration of war:
If the axis has threat of a land advance or can activate Bulgaria
Lemnos, 4 CP
Heraklion 4 CP
Athens SCS+,2CP
Else
Salonica 2 CP
Lemnos 4 CP
Heraklion 2 CP
Athens SCS+,2CP
During a CW/FR/US declaration of war:
Corfu SCS + 2 CP
Patrai 4 CP
Athens 2 CP
Salonica 2 CP
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Capital defence 39/40/41
- Attachments
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- Greece3940..lDefence.jpg (83.44 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Border defence 39/40/41
- Attachments
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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Rear defence 39/40/41
- Attachments
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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Southern costal defence 39/40/41
- Attachments
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- Greece3940..lDefence.jpg (111.27 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Marauder defence A 39/40/41
- Attachments
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- Greece3940..DefenceA.jpg (129.58 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Marauder defence B 39/40/41
- Attachments
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- Greece3940..DefenceB.jpg (96.47 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Capital defence 42+
- Attachments
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- Greece42Ca..lDefence.jpg (69.41 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Border defence 42+
- Attachments
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- Greece42Bo..rDefence.jpg (70.59 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Rear defence 42+
- Attachments
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- Greece42RearDefence.jpg (74.3 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
* Southern costal defence 42+
- Attachments
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- Greece42So..lDefence.jpg (72.24 KiB) Viewed 258 times
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
Here, the III MTN should better be placed between both ports in the Peloponnesos, so that it increases the value of the Notional of both.ORIGINAL: peskpesk
* Rear defence 42+
- Joseignacio
- Posts: 2810
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
What about the 3-2 RES MIL? It could be setup, just it would be flipped. But it could contribute.
From RAW:
From RAW:
When you call out the reserves:
ï move your eligible reserve units from the reserve pool to the map immediately in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2) except that they are set-up face down; and
ï put your eligible reserve units that have previously been removed from the game back into your force pools.
From now on, treat these reserves just like any other units.
- composer99
- Posts: 2931
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:00 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
- Contact:
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
Minor country militia units are placed in production to appear the subsequent turn.
Per §19.4:
So the Greeks don't get to take their reserve MIL into account in their set up.
Per §19.4:
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier availability year. If its availability year is the current year or is a Reserve unit, it is placed in the production pool to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot).
So the Greeks don't get to take their reserve MIL into account in their set up.
~ Composer99
- Joseignacio
- Posts: 2810
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
Thanks. So I guess I have just been cheated when they brought the NED res to the map in the declaration of war in my current game.
Cause the Majors are: [China, Commonwealth, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, USA and USSR]and only these, no?
Edit: No, I have not been cheated on that, because we're playing with more modern rules that allow minors to bring reserves, just like majors. [X(] So in my case I need to count with that MIL, but not in RAW7 or MWIF.
This rules versions crossing is killing me...
Cause the Majors are: [China, Commonwealth, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, USA and USSR]and only these, no?
Edit: No, I have not been cheated on that, because we're playing with more modern rules that allow minors to bring reserves, just like majors. [X(] So in my case I need to count with that MIL, but not in RAW7 or MWIF.
This rules versions crossing is killing me...
-
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- Location: Herts UK
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
Hi
Just my view but the Greece set up for the ships should be based around the location of Axis land based nav as they will be looking to make the most of this to sink those lovely CPs the Greeks have.
Have played a lot of wif and again in my humble opinion think the marauder strategy for set up to be totally flawed and will simply gift the Greeks to the Axis and thereby Yugoslavia.
Their sole aim should be defence and not unheard of for the Cw to risk troops etc to defend them if the Med is still open.
Phil
Just my view but the Greece set up for the ships should be based around the location of Axis land based nav as they will be looking to make the most of this to sink those lovely CPs the Greeks have.
Have played a lot of wif and again in my humble opinion think the marauder strategy for set up to be totally flawed and will simply gift the Greeks to the Axis and thereby Yugoslavia.
Their sole aim should be defence and not unheard of for the Cw to risk troops etc to defend them if the Med is still open.
Phil
-
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- Contact:
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
It really depends on the optional rules and what the Italians can muster. If an invasion by divisions isn't possible because of which optional rules are being used, and the Italians don't have the ability to invade by sea, then defending the capital with units in that hex isn't crucial. Of course you also have to worry about paradrops.ORIGINAL: petracelli
Hi
Just my view but the Greece set up for the ships should be based around the location of Axis land based nav as they will be looking to make the most of this to sink those lovely CPs the Greeks have.
Have played a lot of wif and again in my humble opinion think the marauder strategy for set up to be totally flawed and will simply gift the Greeks to the Axis and thereby Yugoslavia.
Their sole aim should be defence and not unheard of for the Cw to risk troops etc to defend them if the Med is still open.
Phil
The AIO also has to take into consideration that the Allies might DOW Greece.[X(]
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
The marauder defence is not intended to be commonly used but rather to be used for the AIO to surprise those who do not invest in the attack. Remember that there might be many who test weird, or dumb, things when playing a computer game.Have played a lot of wif and again in my humble opinion think the marauder strategy for set up to be totally flawed and will simply gift the Greeks to the Axis and thereby Yugoslavia.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
I find this thread extremely informative. I remember seeing similar threads over the years for other countries. Are there links to such threads or a location where all this information is gathered?
Ronnie
RE: AI for MWIF - Greece
Yes. You can find a thread with all (most?) AI threads in The War Room.
Here is the link to that thread: tm.asp?m=3472975
Here is the link to that thread: tm.asp?m=3472975
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett