Some feedback

[Rodwell]

First of all, nice game engine.

Unfortunately the scenarios and map need alot of work. So far I've only looked at the 1939 scenario. To be honest the setup seems rather arbitrary and almost as if the creator had little knowledge of WWII.

*Slovakia was not a country (delete it and merge the country with Germany. Arguments about the puppet regime are not valid and especially for game purposes better to remove it).
*Persia, Saudia Arabia and Iraq were not "countries" in this period, rather they were controlled by the British Empire. (Delete them, add the territories to the UK).
*Iceland was not an independent country, but part of Denmark. For WWII purposes, it can be part of the UK or the US if one prefers.

*Sub on sub warfare should be removed
*BBs should not fire on subs
(Do subs even serve a purpose, it seems impossible to run any sort of U-boat campaign)

*Ports! They are missing, and everywhere. This hinders amhibious assaults, supplies, etc. Add the following (at least): Trodnheim, Bergen, Harwich, Dover, Malta, Liverpool, Hull, Scapa Flow, Dunkirk, Cherbourg, Bizerte, Oran, Casablanca, Heraklion, Malta, Taranto(!), Malmo, Sundsvall, Cadiz, Palma. I'm sure there are several I missed.
*Add city: Kiruna (Iron Ore came from here, not middle Norway).
*Rename: Tarabulus -> Tripoli. And a whole lot of others.

I could add a whole lot more, but unless/until we get documentation on how to edit scenarios I'll halt there. Looking forward to the patch.

[Severian]

Slovakia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_Rep ... %931945%29
Yes. It was a puppet, but also a country.

Persia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq - you know that "puppet" Persia created in 1879 Cossak Brigade russian-depend? Read also about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Sovi ... on_of_Iran
Saudi Arabia wasn't even British puppet.
Iraq - part of country? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

Sub v. sub - have you ever read thah submarines fought to other subs?

Tarabulus = Tripolis - It's Arabic name of this city. We used original city names. Not Danzig, Gdańsk, not Warsau or Warschau, Warszawa. You can change it yourself if you want.

EDIT:
Sub v. sub - I've found a list of U-Boats sunk by Allied subs
http://www.uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm

[PDiFolco]

I  don't have the game, but will pass as long as the scenarios and map are that incomplete and error-ridden. I mostly agreewith Rodwell observations.
Slovakia and Middle East protectorates as independent country have no purpose, Crete without port doesn't permit its historical invasion, Malta is misplaced, sub war seems totally off (BB were totally unable to engage subs), there's work to make the game feel right, but there's no editor AFAIK...

[comrade]

I see no reason why puppet countries should be removed. All these countries had a good deal of autonomy in real life, most of them fielded their own military units.

Battle of Crete would not be playable at this scale. It was an episode involving about 2 divisions on each side. The only reason it is so well-known is the fact that it was first major airborne operation. Other than that - it's yet another battle with ca. 30k troops on each side. It's just not so easy to re-create conditions for all such battles with division/corps scale (not to mention making the AI cope with it). In my very humble opinion Crete is a good topic for tactical game rather than grand strategy.

Malta is added in 1.20 (when controlled by allies it will disrupt axis supply in north africa through an event), together with many more new features, enchancements and fixes.

BBs engaging submarines is a simplification made on purpose. I didn't want to introduce destroyer units, because it would only add micromanagement without adding any extra fun factor. Consider each BB unit as a formation of flagship & some smaller units like DDs.

Designing such game is always a problem - you can really go down to the very low-level but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself about the proportions between realism (that inevitably leads to more and more micromanagement) and... fun. And you have to answer this question (taking into consideration the amount of time and resources you have to develop the game) and include the answer in the game design.

People have different preferences, some would just love to manage every single ship on the huge map covering whole ocean, other would hate this and would like to focus on land combat div/corps level. No game can satisfy everyone, there will always be this conflict between micro-management and high-level management. We tried to find the balance, and of course we realize that some players won't like parts of current design. What we can promise is that we'll constantly listen and consider all opinions, and work to make the game better in subsequent patches.

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: comrade
People have different preferences, some would just love to manage every single ship on the huge map covering whole ocean, other would hate this and would like to focus on land combat div/corps level. No game can satisfy everyone, there will always be this conflict between micro-management and high-level management. We tried to find the balance, and of course we realize that some players won't like parts of current design. What we can promise is that we'll constantly listen and consider all opinions, and work to make the game better in subsequent patches.

I totally agree, I only hope to have the possibility to partially mod the game.

[winky51]

I think with the simplicity of the game system you can make the naval down to 5-7 units
 
Either
BB, CA, DD, TR, TA
 
OR
 
Carrier group (CV), Battle group (BB+CA), Destroyer or Escort group (CL+DD+DE), TR, TA.
 
players can then decide to place a carrier group and escort group together.
 
I recreated sceanrios for CEAW and SC2 including DD groups and just scaled it up.
 
Here are 3 charts from Ellis's Databook (has every stat you can possibly find for WW2)
http://www.dndadventure.com/images/ww2/navies-1939.gif
http://www.dndadventure.com/images/ww2/naval-prod.gif
http://www.dndadventure.com/images/ww2/naval-losses.gif
 
If you scaled it 2 capital ships per unit.... we will take the US
2 CV, 2 BB, 4 CA, 16 DD per counter  
OR
2 CV, 2 BB + 4 CA (battle group, 16 DD per counter  
 
the 1939 US navy for ALL theatres would be like this...
8-9 battle group counters
11 escort groups
4 CV groups
 
The US only build 8 BBs, and 48 CA through the war... ~13 more counters
The US built 141 CVs but most were escort carriers, 22 big CVs, 9 CVLs... ~13 more CV counters world wide.
They did make ~900 DDs and DEs but this can be incorporated into technology add ons.  The allies OVER BUILD for convoy duty like it was going out of style.  ~56 counters.
 
And this was the most industrius nation in the war.  Its not much for a game of this scale and doesnt assume losses.  I detailed out a very simple system for naval use that can be used with this counter mix.
 
So at best without any losses the US navy WORLD WIDE would be
22 battle groups
22 carrier groups
67 escort groups (which most would be in convoy duties or to compensate for the large amount you could do it through ASW tech)
 
Also not all ships were on mission at the same time.  Some smaller vessals were kept home, or were in a state of repair.  You could just consider operational vessals.
 
Like the US and UK has, if I remember, about a 80% operability in front line A/C.  when you see stats like the US has 100,000 A/C really probably only 1/2 of that was front line combat a/c and 80% of that was operational.
 
Like the germans at best fielded 5,000 a/c at any one point in the war.  But they produced far more a/c that that?!?!?  40k in 1944 alone.  They has a 60% operational rate and pilots are costly.
 
So a lot goes into this.  I already offered my assistance on getting war information right for the game.  I hope you all take it.

[doomtrader]

winky51,
another time you are describing great ideas

we will go trough all of them ASA we will release 1.20
ATM I'm not able to tell, is your proposition possible to implement, and how big impact it could have for the gameplay.


Is that the book you are talking about:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-II-Da ... 1854102540

[PDiFolco]

Thx comrade, I was a bit vocal...
Yet I really don't think Slovakia had any autonomy, and having puppet/very minor countries adds nothing to the game. Vatican is a state technically also ...
Regarding naval warfare, I think even more strongly you made debatable and unhistorical design choices : the Med war needs Crete and above all Malta to be important, even if battles fought on them are small (a couple div vs another, looks like it's the game scale anyway) , due to their strategic locations in the middle of the Med, allowing Axis to support operations in Africa (or Brits to disrupt them).
And really you NEED to separate naval assets in CV, BB,  CA/DD and subs, because each had a very different role. The Battle of the Atlantic didn't need any BB, the player should not have to build BB to fight subs, but instead choose to build BB to rule the surface or DD to fight subs, or subs to kill convoys, etc.

[Severian]

Malta will by added in 1.20 version.

6. Malta added (Valetta as a port city conneted with Central and Eastern Medit. zones) with british division as garrison.

tm.asp?m=1881529

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Rodwell
*Persia, Saudia Arabia and Iraq were not "countries" in this period, rather they were controlled by the British Empire. (Delete them, add the territories to the UK).
*Iceland was not an independent country, but part of Denmark. For WWII purposes, it can be part of the UK or the US if one prefers.
*Add city: Kiruna (Iron Ore came from here, not middle Norway).

Having these neutral "countries" is of course very important, as they each played important roles during the war, in one way or another. To suggest they were merely UK territories seems very ignorant for someone who claims to be a WWII expert, especially in the cases of Saudi Arabia and Persia, they were in almost all respects independent countries.. It would be great if the Iraqi uprising would be an event in the game.

Iceland can perhaps be added to the US after Denmark is conquered.

Narvik would be the natural place for the Swedish iron ore as most of it was shipped through Norweigan waters. At least for as long as the resourcesystem is as it is. Denying Germany the Swedish ore seems worse than the option of putting the PPs in Narvik

[Rodwell]

It's great to see that the designers have strong thoughts on their own design. It would still be nice to be able to edit/create our own scenarios though.

It would be great if the Iraqi uprising would be an event in the game.

The Iraqi "uprising" was a WWII non-event. In this 1939 scenario Iraq has 3 infantry units! I'm sorry but my alternative is much much closer to history (a UK unit was stationed in Iraq, and Iraq had NO combat units).

[winky51]

I know bugs are fixed 1st.  I was just giving some examples.

[Mickrocks201]

The Naval battles seems very arbitrary and too abstact - perhaps some text describing the action could be displayed (like xxx was sunk) instead of just counters changing numbers.   It would be nice to have a summary of damage done to both sides - so I can have a better clue as to what ships the enemay lost.   

[Severian]

The Iraqi "uprising" was a WWII non-event. In this 1939 scenario Iraq has 3 infantry units! I'm sorry but my alternative is much much closer to history (a UK unit was stationed in Iraq, and Iraq had NO combat units).

Sorry, but it's not true. In 1941 Royal Iraqi Army consisted 4 independent divisions, 1 motorised brigade, river boats and aricrafts. Look up to Niehorster's web site, which is the best source of WW2 OdB in web I've ever found.
http://niehorster.orbat.com/051_iraq/41_04_army.html

[jesperpehrson]

The Iraqi Army
* The 1st Infantry Division based in Baghdad (3 infantry brigades, 1 artillery brigade and a cavalry squadron)
* The 2nd Infantry Division based in Mosul and Kirkuk (3 infantry brigades, 3 artillery brigades, 1 cavalry squadron and 1 infantry battalion in Erbil)
* The 3rd Infantry Division based in Baghdad (3 infantry brigades, 3 artillery brigades and a cavalry squadron)
* The 4th Infantry Division based in Diwaniya and Basra (3 Infantry brigades and 1 artillery brigade)
* A Mechanized force was based in Baghdad containing 2 mechanized battalions, 1 light tank company, 1 armored car company and 1 mechanized artillery brigade.

The conflict with Britain started with the Iraqis demanding to have the airbase in Habbaniya released from British control in May 1941. The British refused and a siege ensued with Vichy French forces in Syria aiding the Iraqis. Together with extensive air-power from Egypt the British managed to defeat the besiegers and together with a landing force of Indians in Basra plus the newly formed Arab legion in Jordan they quickly defeated the ill-equipped Iraqi forces.

Therefore it would be a very interesting event to be handled in a game like this, if the UK-player cannot or won´t dispatch the necessary forces, the Iraqi forces can become a major nuissance for their wareffort. It is all about choices in a game like this.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Thx comrade, I was a bit vocal...
Yet I really don't think Slovakia had any autonomy, and having puppet/very minor countries adds nothing to the game. Vatican is a state technically also ...
Regarding naval warfare, I think even more strongly you made debatable and unhistorical design choices : the Med war needs Crete and above all Malta to be important, even if battles fought on them are small (a couple div vs another, looks like it's the game scale anyway) , due to their strategic locations in the middle of the Med, allowing Axis to support operations in Africa (or Brits to disrupt them).
And really you NEED to separate naval assets in CV, BB,  CA/DD and subs, because each had a very different role. The Battle of the Atlantic didn't need any BB, the player should not have to build BB to fight subs, but instead choose to build BB to rule the surface or DD to fight subs, or subs to kill convoys, etc.

So by that right you would not want Vichy France included? Even though it(Slovakia) was a minor entity in the grander scope of events, chrome like this makes me appreciate the programmers more and more than willing to beg the ole battleaxe to let me get it.

I agree with your take on Malta..That is a must. But Crete? Whats the point in a grand strategy game as this is? Yes, historically it was important but in-game it is not especially with the unit sizes as they are.

While I would like destroyers included, the idea that BB's actually represent squadrons/fleets/ whatnot works for me. Its all about scale.

[Mickrocks201]

Two additional suggested improvements:

1) Rebasing air units: instead of just having nothing happen when you try to rebase an air unit more than 40 hexs how about either showing the "edge" of the 40 hex range or changing the cursor color if it is outside the 40 hex range. Right now it is a bit annoying trying to get an air unit from Russia to France as quickly as possible -
a) select the air unit
b) select the rebase icon
c) click where you want to move to
d) if you picked a hex more than 40 hexes away nothing happens and everything is cleared and you must restart process again, forcing you to either count 40 hexes away or keep doing steps a thru c until you get within 40 hex limit.

2) in options have a "confirm attack" preference - as opposed to just attacking when focus is on one of your units and you left click an enemy unit, if the option is set then display the battle stats and ask for confirm before attacking. I can't tell you how many times I attacked a unit when all I really wanted to do was change focus in order to set up a combined attack. It can get annoying.

[Severian]

Second suggestion - it's resolved in 1.20 version [:)] 

[chris0827]

Crete was a very important airbase. It was used by the Germans to attack convoys traveling through the mediterranean. Had the British held on to it they could've used it to bomb Ploesti and other targets in the balkans.

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: chris0827

Crete was a very important airbase.

Perhaps Battle of Crete and strategical conseguences could be simulated by an event.