Why is this forum so freaking dead?

The highly anticipated second release in the Panzer Command series, featuring an updated engine and many major feature improvements. 3D Tactical turn-based WWII combat on the Eastern Front, with historical scenarios and campaigns as well as support for random generated battles and campaigns from 1941-1944.
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76mm
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Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by 76mm »

Geez, I don't get it. After all these years, the CMBB forum gets more traffic than this one.

This game has gotten very solid reviews, the devs are civil, very responsive, have further plans for the engine, and seem to welcome (or at least consider) player input, but there is almost no activity or discussion.

How about another "discussion" about covered arcs or entering buildings to liven things up?
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Joram »

To be honest I got this and it couldn't hold my attention.
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Blond_Knight
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Blond_Knight »

Me either,  its an incomplete game.
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spellir74
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by spellir74 »

I like it a lot. I hope it is a success (and continues).

Admittedly it is my first strategy /tactical game ever. And I never heard of 'CM:x' (until now). So I might be ignant.

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History write-ups, OOB and vehicle specs = real good. Someone cared!

Battle /campaign generator and map editor = neat!

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I have critiques and wish lists like every thinking man should. Maybe I'll work up energy to expand that.

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I'm real good at PC. I play it realistically; meaning like these are real guys that don't want to die.

I have one sceanrio to go in the Karkov German (IIIPzA, !4th Pz) campaign. My first Campaign proper.

(Though I was mauled Pz wise at scen6 I still decisively won it (with 4 slowed T34s charging past my fairly intact PzGren inf
line --vs 2 mkIV stubs to their left flank at bad range, 1 ATG and one PIII at right).

I was then assigned later that day to reinforce against a break through somewhere else on that sherstuck front, where I was
given the opport to re-up my tank units.

This is unrealistic IMO. Same with medals and exp. They're awarded in one scen to non-core /alternates but then taken away
when those same alternates are offered as reinforcements again.

Also I want the knocked out tanks to be dead and blackened like PC:OWS!

Why must flags be visible in game? Wouldn't this work: flags hidden on game scene (but not top down map); also placed in
concealment factors (so AI don't just stand there smoking butts)?

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I always get at least decisive. (Yes victory.)

When I first started with the winter storm demo I played it like it was a game with do or die attacks; sometimes I'd win and
sometimes defeats. I would try different tactics each time (since I didn't want to buy the actual thing(s)). Between that and
PC:K's RBG, I got good.

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I would prob do AARs, if it was possible to --or I knew how to-- get to notepad in game (ex: ctrl+Ent?).

(Also someday, entire through-playback after the entire game. Is that even possible? Certainly turn by turn AARs are
generatable.

------
What do these mean:

"Stoi nyet nebuten greshop"?
"...Maen der blagen kamph. An der mit und der loin"?


---
Morgenstimmung Bliztkrieg:

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Joram
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Joram »

It's not a bad game at all.  In some ways it's quite innovative.  But in the end it doesn't add a whole lot for me for this historical period.
 
Mraah
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Mraah »

ORIGINAL: spellir74

I like it a lot. I hope it is a success (and continues).

Admittedly it is my first strategy /tactical game ever. And I never heard of 'CM:x' (until now). So I might be ignant.

Well, I feel CM is still alive because of the modders and the community ... they seem to put alot of effort into the game ... and they've been doing that for several years. I feel as though if WinterStorm had more attention then we would be one generation ahead of where we are now and the game wouldn't be so incomplete as some want it to be.

I have one sceanrio to go in the Karkov German (IIIPzA, !4th Pz) campaign. My first Campaign proper.

Great ... looking forward to your release. I have plans for a camp that runs from May12-28, 1942 .... using SSG's Kharkov: Disater on the Donets as a guide. It will involve the 21st Tank Corps running about 16 key battles minimum.

Also, since I'm beta testing Stridors Map Maker I was going to make a completely new set of useable maps. For my camp idea I'd probably have about 10-20 new maps ... but I'll see. Also, I'm using Google earth to help get an idea of what the terrain height and layout is in the general area that the 21st operated in (using Disaster on the Donets as a reference).
What do these mean:

"Stoi nyet nebuten greshop"?
"...Maen der blagen kamph. An der mit und der loin"?

Goto Google Translate and cut and paste the phrases in and convert from German to English ... handy tool.

Rob
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spellir74
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by spellir74 »

ORIGINAL: Mraah
spellir


What do these mean:

"Stoi nyet nebuten greshop"?
"...Maen der blagen kamph. An der mit und der loin"?

Goto Google Translate and cut and paste the phrases in and convert from German to English ... handy tool.

Rob

==========

Stoi nyet nebuten greshop
Translation: Russian » English
Stoi nyet nebuten greshop

Maen der blagen kamph. An der mit und der loin
Translation: German » English
Maen the blagen kamph. At the loin and the

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Thanks for the tip Mraah.

I knew that would happen. I've been using bable fish for ages --and google now.

I suspected that one could not take phonetic spelled gobbly gook and have it translated. That's why I asked.

Does anyone know what those in-game phrases mean?

(Guess:

"do not let them win/ pass"

And

"something, something 'bomb' [period]. 'And then with' something.")

test

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Erik Rutins
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Geez, I don't get it. After all these years, the CMBB forum gets more traffic than this one.
This game has gotten very solid reviews, the devs are civil, very responsive, have further plans for the engine, and seem to welcome (or at least consider) player input, but there is almost no activity or discussion.

Well, that worked to start up discussion again. [;)]

Keep in mind that CM was first on the block, has had far more sales and far more exposure through various channels over the years and also a ton of additional modder/community involvement. While Kharkov is IMHO a great game, we still have a ways to go to get where we want to be. Keep an eye on things here and we'll keep you posted when we have more news.

For those of you who feel Kharkov was missing things - yep, there are things I wish we'd had time/resources to put in there as well but I think the release is a complete and very good game. It would be helpful if you let us know what you missed most so that we can factor it into our plans for the future.
Erik Rutins
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76mm
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
For those of you who feel Kharkov was missing things - yep, there are things I wish we'd had time/resources to put in there as well but I think the release is a complete and very good game. It would be helpful if you let us know what you missed most so that we can factor it into our plans for the future.

Erik, I think it is fair to say that you and your team seem pretty receptive to ideas, so more traffic on this forum would only help make future installments better. Hopefully we'll see many more releases in this series.
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by benpark »

The game grew with a pretty decent leap from the first iteration. It needs more of something to keep the momentum up, obviously. There have been a few bugs that still need to be fixed, so we will see what the upcoming patch will deliver in terms of final polish.

I'm a bit surprised more people aren't modding the game. It's a little daunting at first, but it's getting easier due to Stridor's amazing tools (Map Maker). A map maker as easy to use as CM's probably won't happen due to the game's architecture, but it's getting close enough to do a decent map in an hour (or less). As for the models- if you can make a box in Milkshape, you are well on your way to creating a building. Want to recreate a picture of a particular urban battle in PzC? It's possible.

Some things that the game needs for the next installment- better infantry rules, better visual appeal overall (map, models & anims) and good urban combat modeling. The devs shouldn't wait for putting in bigger maps, either. Do it for the next game, 2x2k and 4x4k would be good. It's sorely needed for tank fighting.

Throw the kitchen sink in, and then look at what people still want for the next game in the series, there will still be plenty to sell people on. By the game series two down the road, it will probably headed West any way-too big a task for the pool of modders we have now. If the current small group of 3d modelers making mods is any indication, they have no worries that they will be getting battles or fronts done before they will.

I've seen lots of decent wargames stall before they reached the promise of their potential. Interest in titles needs to be maintained for the good of the hard core as well as the prospective customers. Keep the interest level up- let people know what's in the pipeline, etc etc. I'm hoping the game continues to grow and flourish, but it's something that needs to be cultivated actively by both developer and fan base.
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Zakhal »

Lots of the stuff I want have allready been mentioned:

1.destructable houses
2.dynamic inf platoons (number of heads drops according to losses)
3.more inf animations (close assault etc)
4.bigger maps - considering the way the units are moved as platoons the map should be big - like real big
5.more small details like ammo count (somtimes I want to know how many rounds is left)

I wonder if som of the passivity towards panzer command is the fact that people want a worthy sequel to steel panthers/combat mission but in its current form panzer command - while a good game - is not comparable to those classics. Its more like somthing else (SP3 brigade command on small maps?) and that puts people down.

I see the potential though. There is so much good in this game (like the random battle generator => wow!, historical detail, etc) that I doubt the developers are unable to see it through in the next games of the series.

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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by z1812 »

Hi All,

The game has potential and yes there needs to be improvement. Lots. The question is always why play PCK if Combat Mission is avaiable. Why buy it if you already have Combat Mission.

Combat Mission is a more complete game. So people go back to it or do not buy PCK. The wheel does not have to be re-invented just make it better than the last one.

I bought the PCK bundle and I do not regret it. However I still play Combat Mission more. Below are a few suggestions I have.

1. The scenario editor is fairly easy to use but could be a bit more intuitive.

2. For God's sake make the map editor at least as easy as Steel Panthers
or Combat Mission..........that is key.

3. Have more mixed elements in the campaigns. I am playing an infantry campaign and it is becoming old quickly. It would be nice to have a tank or armoured car group now and again to play with.

4. Sorry to say the infantry animations lack.......they have neither the charm of The Campaign Series or the Refinement of CMSF.

5. Units should be selectable by there "coins"

6. More views to follow the action without the units needing to be visibly selected.

7. It is a game. Lets be able to direct artillery and airstrikes as we wish.

8. We don't all own Dual Core Processors. Speed up the turn resolution time.

9. Maps need to be more immersive. Historical maps are fine. But people like variety on a small scale. Hills, streams, woods. The maps seem to me like more of the same.

10 Get rid of the reaction phase and give us waypoints.

11. As a result of the above #10. PBEM will be much more straightforward and quicker. It needs to be.

12. All units should be transportable given the proper vehicle.

13. Set up zones..another important factor.

What ever improvements you make should be backwards applicable to the previous incarnations.

My 20 cents.

regards John

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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: z1812

Combat Mission is a more complete game.

Okay, but a reasonable person has to acknowledge the fact that BF has abandoned the "whole-front" model under which those three games were created. They aren't gonna make any more games that cram all that equipment/units and features into one package. They aren't gonna do it, because they can't sell enough of the games to cover the cost of development. Instead, they're doing modules that are very limited in scope, CMSF being the first.

So, what's it reasonable to demand from Koios? We can throw down the gauntlet and say, "if we don't get CM:Koios Edition, we're not buying." Were we to do so, and were Koios to respond rationally, that'd be the end of the deal. They'd walk away from Panzer Command, because they can't recover the money that they'd have to put into it. That's the reality, the price of art and programming being what they are.

Right now, I see the Panzer Command games as a shell of sorts. It's developer provides lots of opportunity for modding, and some really talented people are making great strides in filling in the guts of the thing. And If Koiosworks can make enough money to justify the creation of yet another PzC title, the shell will likely become more elaborate and sophisticated, with larger maps for instance. But such improvements are likely to come in incremental fits and starts, as they're deemed feasible, cost wise.

Let me close with a digression. The other day, I was perusing another thread in which folks cited naval games that they'd like to see redone. One of the posters mentioned Task Force 1942, an old favorite of mine. I started to post in support of the idea, but after pausing for a moment to contemplate the cost of upgrading the game-engine and graphics, I didn't bother. It'll never happen. It would just be too expensive relative to the game's potential sales. As with PzC, there simply aren't enough folks interested in that style of game to warrant the investment.



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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by DasTactic »

I've got to admit I don't play the game much - and I really only played a few games when I bought it. I still monitor the forum every few days to see if there are any updates or interesting information about playing the game. It is a game a want to like but I never really developed a feel for it.

As feedback about why I don't play it:

a. I found that telling my infantry troops to rush everywhere seemed just as effective as being strategic so there didn't seem much point in being careful. Rush to cover. Sit and destroy other troops.

b. If your initial placement places armour on the flank, kiss good-bye to the other flank. I never could get used to using infantry to take on armour. Just an exercise in frustration for a newbie.

c. I thought originally that the random map generator was going to be like in CM or Steel Panthers where the whole terrain was generated. I was a little disappointed to find that there are a handful of maps and it is just the initial placement that is random.

D. I played the Boot Camp campaign but the scenario where you just need to avoid the bridge and get your armoured personnel carriers to the other side made me realise that being cautious is just a waste of time. I probably have got this aspect completely wrong but it seems that aggressive rushes are more effective than using strategy. I don't games where rushes are the point of the game. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

As I said above, it is a game I really want to like. I think the graphics and play style is fine. I just never got a feel for it tactically. I will pick it up again when updates are released or if, by reading the AARs, I get a feel for what should be happening. I would also love to see heaps more maps to play.

Also, I like games where if you are presented with threat A, defence B is the most effective. Sort of like Rock Paper Scissors. I can't see that aspect to this game even though people write that it is main component. Games I play a lot that do this well are Advanced Tactics and Dominions 3 as examples.
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by z1812 »

Hi All,

In reply to Prince of Eckmuhl.

CMSF is a more complete game as well. True it was really lacking at release, but if you like modern and tactical with patch 1.08 it is very, very good. The Map and Scenario editor are quite comprehensive and nice tools to use. In my view Battlefronts direction has changed yet their commitment to quality is still very apparent.

Your comment in regards to Koios "They'd walk away from Panzer Command, because they can't recover the money that they'd have to put into it. That's the reality, the price of art and programming being what they are." So perhaps the Module approach is a wise decision.


If Matrix wants to compete for World War 2 game dollars, 3d and Tactical, then the system has to be more comprehensive. More patches with more improvements and refinements.

The nice thing about Panzer Command is that it was relatively Bug free at release. Also Matrix is very forthcoming and supportive in regards to their products. Nice people as well. I along with others are hoping that Panzer Command will be the next complete WW2 3d tactical game. We shall see.

For all I know it may already be, by units sold, a very successful product. I hope it is.

Regards John
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: z1812

CMSF is a more complete game as well.

Respectfully, CMSF is really, really thin in its vehicle/unit count. There's simply not a hell of a lot there. And it's completely different from PzC in that there's nothing that folks who buy the game can do about it.

In other regards, I find CMSF superior, notably in it's RT-mode of play. I realize that I'm in a minority in that respect, but I applaud Steve for having the guts to buck convention and move his franchise forward.

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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by killroyishere »

Because it is so simular to Combat Mission it had to do a lot to replace the time playing CM vs it. Things I found annoying about Kharkov were the green tracer fire that reminded me of sci-fi movies, the complete wipeout of infantry units as a whole instead of almost individually like CM and Close Combat does it. It should have at least been on a scale of 1 for every 3 deaths and that would have been much better. The smallness of the units everything is so tiny compared to CM. I was bored with the game engine just a few battles into it. The fact it has no random map generator was another one of the things that turned me off as just flipping the same map around by the corners doesn't do enough random changes to make the battles that much more random as far as terrain is concerned. And I do agree each Combat Mission was just a more complete game. I think they started off in a bad date of the war as well, but, in a way I'm glad because when they finally get to the western front hopefully they will put more into the game that people want to see like continous burning fires and destructable buildings and such. The game just felt more like a game than a more realistic simulation like Combat Mission and Close Combat and Steel Panthers present. Maybe I'm just too picky I didn't like CMSF either and won't get into what I think is a complete failing by Battlefront with that new engine. But, by having Combat Mission origionals, Close Combat and Steel Panthers it's not like it's the end of the world when other games don't meet up to those standards, but, then again they aren't worthy of what little playtime I get or extra monies I have to spend on either. Kharkov was a worthy effort, but, the engine and resources has a long ways to go to catchup to the kings of strategy tactical wargaming imho.
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Mobius »

The Kursk and the years following is a more popular time period to game and I would like to see a 8-12 scenario historical campaign of some battle in years 1943-1945.

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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Skull »

"The fact it has no random map generator was another one of the things that turned me off as just flipping the same map around by the corners doesn't do enough random changes to make the battles that much more random as far as terrain is concerned."

That`s the fact, which still keeps me from buying the game. I`m on the fence for this, since Winter Storm came out. And that`s been a pretty long time ago. I didn`t buy Winter Storm, because it seemed to be the same "scripted campaign" game, like hundred other games before. And to tell the truth, if i want something scripted, i can find it with much better graphics at every corner.
My interest was renewed, when i saw that the successor had a random campaign generator. Finally, i would have been able to to play campaigns, which wouldn`t be the same every time. But unfortunately, you missed something again. It may be difficult to implement random maps. But if you want to pull away people from playing CM, i guess that would be a major selling point. I didn`t buy CMSF, because of the missing random maps. And i know for sure, that i`m not the only one.
By the way. There should also be more units. I don`t know, if the unit list on the forum is complete. But if it is, then it just doesn`t seem enough to me. And it shouldn`t all be delegated to the modders, either. It seems an easy way these days, to push half assed games out the door, thinking that the modders will do the rest (not talking about Panzer Command, here. But maybe you get what i mean). If i shell out the money for something, i like to buy a complete product. Having to search around forums and installing third party files to get a game to work the way it should out of the box, isn`t my idea of a complete game.

And a last thing. It seems, that PCK is different in some things, compared to Winter Storm. Maybe it would be time, to get out a demo then.
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: Why is this forum so freaking dead?

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Skull

"The fact it has no random map generator was another one of the things that turned me off as just flipping the same map around by the corners doesn't do enough random changes to make the battles that much more random as far as terrain is concerned."

That`s the fact, which still keeps me from buying the game.

Anyone in the know is welcome to correct me about this, but I'm fairly certain that the only way that you can inexpensively implement a random map utility in a game like this is to make it tile-based. The problem is that the resulting maps are unrealistic and less attractive than those that can (and have) been created for PzC.
ORIGINAL: Skull

By the way. There should also be more units. I don`t know, if the unit list on the forum is complete. But if it is, then it just doesn`t seem enough to me. And it shouldn`t all be delegated to the modders, either. It seems an easy way these days, to push half assed games out the door, thinking that the modders will do the rest (not talking about Panzer Command, here. But maybe you get what i mean). If i shell out the money for something, i like to buy a complete product. Having to search around forums and installing third party files to get a game to work the way it should out of the box, isn`t my idea of a complete game.

Let me state something obvious here, and that is that 3D art is really, really expensive. If you look at the quality of the vehicles that have been produced by Mobius and Stridor, and consider the dollars that a developer would have to invest to incorporate a fleet of such models into a game, you'd have to conclude that the project would be cost prohibitive. Games like this can't hit the 100k-sales mark any longer. There simply aren't enough buyers out there. The alternative is to produce a solid framework for gamers, and then let folks flesh it out as desired. IMHO, it's that or nothing. The CMAK/CMBB model, laudable as it may have been five or ten years ago, is dead. And if you want improvements to stuff like graphics or killing "borg-sighting," its absolutely essential that we consider alternatives such as PzC or CMSF. It's the only game in town, if you want things to move forward, in terms of both technology and gameplay.

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