OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Re today's NYT:
"On the eve of the 60th anniversary of the historic, American-led airlift to supply the besieged capital, the mayor is going ahead with plans to close the airport by year’s end. How sad."
More history in the "unmaking," reminiscent of the attempt to rename Henderson Field.
The full story is at the link below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/arts/ ... ref=slogin
"On the eve of the 60th anniversary of the historic, American-led airlift to supply the besieged capital, the mayor is going ahead with plans to close the airport by year’s end. How sad."
More history in the "unmaking," reminiscent of the attempt to rename Henderson Field.
The full story is at the link below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/arts/ ... ref=slogin
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Please leave it to the people of Berlin whether they want to have an airport in the middle of the city (including the accompanying noise) or not. There was a general vote whether to preserve the airport lately which was lost significantly.
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Did you read the story in the link? Author MICHAEL KIMMELMAN wrote the following:
"In the event, referendum voters, splitting along the old cold war lines, endorsed keeping it open by a 3 to 2 ratio, but only 22 percent of Berliners cast ballots, shy of the 25 percent required. Mr. Wowereit may have kept turnout low by saying beforehand that he wouldn’t even abide by a yes vote, the referendum being nonbinding."
Is this the general vote you're refering to?
"In the event, referendum voters, splitting along the old cold war lines, endorsed keeping it open by a 3 to 2 ratio, but only 22 percent of Berliners cast ballots, shy of the 25 percent required. Mr. Wowereit may have kept turnout low by saying beforehand that he wouldn’t even abide by a yes vote, the referendum being nonbinding."
Is this the general vote you're refering to?
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Didn't we do an airlift, so that Berliners could have a referendum in the first place?
Tacticon
What if there were no hypothetical situations?
What if there were no hypothetical situations?
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: tacticon
Didn't we do an airlift, so that Berliners could have a referendum in the first place?
Actually, I think there was some larger motive involved. [8|]
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Shame, but! Time moves on. I wouldnt dwell too much on the past. Frankly I dont even understand why the USA still has troops in Europe. Cant the Euros afford to protect themselves? Especially now?
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: Sheytan
... Frankly I dont even understand why the USA still has troops in Europe.
To garrison Ramstein AFB and Landstuhl Regional Med Center, which is the first stop for any serious US casualties abroad. I had to go to Landstuhl during my tour in Bosnia in '00.
ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Cant the Euros afford to protect themselves? Especially now?
Money isn't the issue. Drawing from my Bosnian experience, the Euros were perfectly capable of handling the (initial) problems in the Balkans, but there was a lot of "baggage" among the different EC members that was preventing a consensus, while the US could move more unilaterally, back when "unilateral" was a good word.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
I was also at Ramstein, for a different reason however. I was the Base Housing Officer for the 7241 st ABG in Izmir Turkey for a few years, and TDY'ed to RAM a number of times to impliment the new computer system they were deploying. I left Izmir shortly after the ABG, I believe it is now the 741st ABS, was drawn down.
I also served with the 1st Inf foreward in Germany in the 80's. I think its high time the USA left Europe. Regarding Bosnia, I was offered a job there to work for the Base maintence contractor. I decided id pass, further, Turkey was willing to send troops to Bosnia but the Euros didnt want them to. After many people died the US had to go in and clean up. I dont think the Euros have the resolve to clean any mess up in thier back yards, but thats no justification for us to remain there.
Case people havnt noticed, things are getting expensive in the USA. And frankly id rather the money that is pissed away to buy influence all over the globe gets spent on healthcare for Vets, or to help the growing number of poor in the USA. Or better yet, how about a balanced budget...
I also served with the 1st Inf foreward in Germany in the 80's. I think its high time the USA left Europe. Regarding Bosnia, I was offered a job there to work for the Base maintence contractor. I decided id pass, further, Turkey was willing to send troops to Bosnia but the Euros didnt want them to. After many people died the US had to go in and clean up. I dont think the Euros have the resolve to clean any mess up in thier back yards, but thats no justification for us to remain there.
Case people havnt noticed, things are getting expensive in the USA. And frankly id rather the money that is pissed away to buy influence all over the globe gets spent on healthcare for Vets, or to help the growing number of poor in the USA. Or better yet, how about a balanced budget...
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
No argument re Vet healthcare/balanced budget.
Many of the younger Deutch wanted us out of Germany, but the ones old enough to remember the Cold War thought differently.
You would have had a good time in Bosnia, esp. if you were a civilian contractor working for B&R; those guys lived the high life outside the main gate at Eagle Base, Tuzla, drinking at the Cafe Dallas while I pulled guard duty abt 25 yards away.
Turks eventually came to Bosnia and served as a Quick RxN Force at Eagle Base. Otherwise, they patrolled the Southern sector of Bosnia (Herzegovina?), which was the roughest duty in country.
Many of the younger Deutch wanted us out of Germany, but the ones old enough to remember the Cold War thought differently.
You would have had a good time in Bosnia, esp. if you were a civilian contractor working for B&R; those guys lived the high life outside the main gate at Eagle Base, Tuzla, drinking at the Cafe Dallas while I pulled guard duty abt 25 yards away.
Turks eventually came to Bosnia and served as a Quick RxN Force at Eagle Base. Otherwise, they patrolled the Southern sector of Bosnia (Herzegovina?), which was the roughest duty in country.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Yep it was Brown and Root. I am aware the Turks came in later. Sadly it was a bit late then.
When I was stationed at Goppingen with the 1st IDF I had things thrown at me, the bird displayed, etc. Germans not wanting us there is not new. Much as I wanted to display sympathy to people who have a mechanized infantry batallion rolling through thier town at 0 dark hundred, I always remembered why we came to be there, and frankly I didnt have any sympathy at all. But as I said, its time we left.
BTW im currently reading a very funny book with quite a few references to KBR etc. Its called Absurdistan, author is Gary Shteyngart. Pick it up for a chuckle.
When I was stationed at Goppingen with the 1st IDF I had things thrown at me, the bird displayed, etc. Germans not wanting us there is not new. Much as I wanted to display sympathy to people who have a mechanized infantry batallion rolling through thier town at 0 dark hundred, I always remembered why we came to be there, and frankly I didnt have any sympathy at all. But as I said, its time we left.
BTW im currently reading a very funny book with quite a few references to KBR etc. Its called Absurdistan, author is Gary Shteyngart. Pick it up for a chuckle.
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RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Shame, flew into Templehof in the 80's. Prettiest airport I've seen.
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
There are two reasons to close the airport of Tempelhof: First, there are the noise and safety issues having an airport in the middle of such a big city. Second, and probably much more important, there are economic issues.
Berlin expands the Airport of Berlin Schoenefeld (the most important airport of the former GDR, btw) to a modern hub airport, which can be used by even the largest civil planes. This is a huge investment for the almost bankrupt city (state) of Berlin, and it must become a success. So of course they not interested to run the small old airport of Tempelhof any more. This would be a wasteful competition.
It is not a wise move to run a commercial airport, accepting huge losses year by year, just to "keep history alive". This is the task of museums etc. E.g. we have the is the air bridge memorial http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Berli ... enkmal.jpg
Berlin expands the Airport of Berlin Schoenefeld (the most important airport of the former GDR, btw) to a modern hub airport, which can be used by even the largest civil planes. This is a huge investment for the almost bankrupt city (state) of Berlin, and it must become a success. So of course they not interested to run the small old airport of Tempelhof any more. This would be a wasteful competition.
It is not a wise move to run a commercial airport, accepting huge losses year by year, just to "keep history alive". This is the task of museums etc. E.g. we have the is the air bridge memorial http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Berli ... enkmal.jpg
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
- Kereguelen
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RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Yep it was Brown and Root. I am aware the Turks came in later. Sadly it was a bit late then.
When I was stationed at Goppingen with the 1st IDF I had things thrown at me, the bird displayed, etc. Germans not wanting us there is not new. Much as I wanted to display sympathy to people who have a mechanized infantry batallion rolling through thier town at 0 dark hundred, I always remembered why we came to be there, and frankly I didnt have any sympathy at all. But as I said, its time we left.
BTW im currently reading a very funny book with quite a few references to KBR etc. Its called Absurdistan, author is Gary Shteyngart. Pick it up for a chuckle.
Hi,
as a German I can only say that it is better when the US Army stays in Germany. Their presence worked well as stabilizing factor in European politics after WW II (and greatly annoys sympathizers of the parties of the extreme left and extreme right - which is a good thing!).
And while it is true that public opinion is currently not really in favour of the US presence (not only in Germany but in most European countries), this will most likely change when the US have elected a new president (any new president will do).
If you're interested to understand German politics, I recommend to try the following website: http://www.spiegel.de/international/
It is the English language website of the German weekly (center-left) news magazine "DER SPIEGEL".
K
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Actually I gave up trying to understand Euro politics or US politics for that matter when both nations condemned the Republic of Turkey for genocide against the Armenians. This genocide was allegedly commited by the Ottoman Turks of...ta da, the Ottoman Empire. When Mustafa Kemal Ataturk remade Turkey, into a republic...im sure he never imagined the very power that enticed the Ottoman Empire into WW1 would some 95 odd years later be standing in front of the European Union conferences and asserting how terrible the Turks were. So every delightfully ironic.
Both nations profess to regard Turkey as the best of friends, and a good component of Turkeys mechanized forces are actually made up of German equiptment, givin to them by Germany, or used to be, I havnt lived there in a few years so im not sure if you will still see Leopard tanks driving down the road. Which mind you I still regard as one of the best tanks ever made.
Guess they still do...
Defense Industry Undersecretariat (SSM) and Aselsan signed yesterday a contract for the modernization project of Leopard 1A1 and A1A4 tanks.
The contract was signed by General Staff Deputy Chief General Yaþar Büyükanýt, Defense Industry Undersecretary Dursun Ali Ercan and Aselsan General Manager Necip Berkmen. Addressing the signing ceremony , Büyükanýt noted that the project came to a significant stage and thanked all that had contributed to the project.
The project foresees the procurement of operation spares and required training in order to modernize the firing systems of 162 Leopard 1A1 and A1A4 tanks belonging to the Turkish Land Forces.Designed by Aselsan, the integration and testing of firing systems to the tanks are required to be completed within 24 months by the company.
Ankara-Turkish Daily News
.................................................................................................................................
But I digress, BOTH nations also have "clouded" periods in thier past regarding ethnic minorities, IE, native americans, or slavery, for example. I dont think I need to go into detail about Germanys past. Its treatment of native populations in the German African colonies was bad enough. Ah and when is the EU going to condemn Russia for its genocide against the Ukranians? As I said its all so very delightfully ironic, and no, I will never "understand" politics[;)]
Both nations profess to regard Turkey as the best of friends, and a good component of Turkeys mechanized forces are actually made up of German equiptment, givin to them by Germany, or used to be, I havnt lived there in a few years so im not sure if you will still see Leopard tanks driving down the road. Which mind you I still regard as one of the best tanks ever made.
Guess they still do...
Defense Industry Undersecretariat (SSM) and Aselsan signed yesterday a contract for the modernization project of Leopard 1A1 and A1A4 tanks.
The contract was signed by General Staff Deputy Chief General Yaþar Büyükanýt, Defense Industry Undersecretary Dursun Ali Ercan and Aselsan General Manager Necip Berkmen. Addressing the signing ceremony , Büyükanýt noted that the project came to a significant stage and thanked all that had contributed to the project.
The project foresees the procurement of operation spares and required training in order to modernize the firing systems of 162 Leopard 1A1 and A1A4 tanks belonging to the Turkish Land Forces.Designed by Aselsan, the integration and testing of firing systems to the tanks are required to be completed within 24 months by the company.
Ankara-Turkish Daily News
.................................................................................................................................
But I digress, BOTH nations also have "clouded" periods in thier past regarding ethnic minorities, IE, native americans, or slavery, for example. I dont think I need to go into detail about Germanys past. Its treatment of native populations in the German African colonies was bad enough. Ah and when is the EU going to condemn Russia for its genocide against the Ukranians? As I said its all so very delightfully ironic, and no, I will never "understand" politics[;)]
- castor troy
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RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
this forum isn´t the place for politics anyway...
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: castor troy
this forum isn´t the place for politics anyway...
Indeed!
Regards,
Greg
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
this forum isn´t the place for politics anyway...
C´mon! The War in the Pacific and Berlin Airlift...the connection is obvious!
[:D]
(sarcasm)
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RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Did you read the story in the link? Author MICHAEL KIMMELMAN wrote the following:
"In the event, referendum voters, splitting along the old cold war lines, endorsed keeping it open by a 3 to 2 ratio, but only 22 percent of Berliners cast ballots, shy of the 25 percent required. Mr. Wowereit may have kept turnout low by saying beforehand that he wouldn’t even abide by a yes vote, the referendum being nonbinding."
Yep I read the story (plus others in the newspapers), everyone who didn't want Tempelhof to remain open didn't have to go voting, because the Major already declared he would ignore the referendum. Everyone who wanted to keep it open had this _one chance_ to show the politician and force them by sheer quantity to take them serious. Yet over 3/4 didn't vote or voted against. Obviously not that much love for Tempelhof.
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
Not much point in voting for a non-binding referendum, esp. if it rained that day.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: OT - Berlin (airlift) Airport to close
ORIGINAL: Sheytan
As I said its all so very delightfully ironic, and no, I will never "understand" politics[;)]
Politics are all about 'dirty laundry'. [:-]