Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

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Enforcer
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Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Enforcer »

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies .. We were
planning offensive operation on Dec 8th.. we actually made our opponent resign in mid '42 because all his CV's were sunk or 6 months in drydock along with all BB's.. Force Z and the US Pac Fleet ruled the waves! DEI, Singapore, Rangoon, Rabaul never fell and the phils were already preping to recieve reinforcement.

So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...

No matter if Sijen or I are Allied or Axis we cannot do that!!
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Terminus
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Terminus »

[8|]
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Hortlund
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Hortlund »

wtf does that have to do with AE?
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by cantona2 »

as PJH has said wtf has this got to do with AE ffs
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Zebedee
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Zebedee »

I suppose increasing the likelihood of a Japanese points victory if the Brave Sir Robin tactic is taken too far would push an Allied player to actually fight every once and a while.
 
But that's human vs human play. The AI fights too much and needs to learn when to retreat more often! I often think that vanilla games should cater for the AI player and the mods cater for human vs human balance.
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Gem35 »

too much caffeine there, Enforcer or did you post in the wrong forum ?
It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by bradfordkay »

Could a moderator move this thread so that some of us won't feel guilty for responding?

fair winds,
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: Enforcer

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies .. We were
planning offensive operation on Dec 8th.. we actually made our opponent resign in mid '42 because all his CV's were sunk or 6 months in drydock along with all BB's.. Force Z and the US Pac Fleet ruled the waves! DEI, Singapore, Rangoon, Rabaul never fell and the phils were already preping to recieve reinforcement.

So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...

No matter if Sijen or I are Allied or Axis we cannot do that!!
I completely disagree that this is "gamey". There is no advantage of game mechanics being exploited.

That said, I do think it is a strategy inconsistent with the mindset of the Allies. There is no way Nimitz, Halsey or MacArthur were going to hide. Further, it is a misconception that the Allied carriers can't match the Japanese 1 for 1 (once the zero bonus has expired). In my games I seek to engage the Japanese CV on equal terms as early as possible. The operative word there is equal terms...there's no way I'm going to baited into a CV battle on terms that are unfavorable.
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Yava »

As Niceguy says no one is going to commit a suicide... I never fought a CV battle knowing I stand no chances against the enemy. if it was a sneaky trap and I felt for it .... well things happen but never conciously have I engaged the enemy knowing that it's suicide and I wouldn't call it gamey... [8|]
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by bradfordkay »

I'm with Niceguy and Yava here... I am not going to send my forces into a situation where they will be overwhelmed unless I believe that the payoff is greater than the cost. What I find to be gamey are folks who will throw away their assets on a whim, because they're only 0's and 1's and thus it doesn't really matter if you lose them.

The original post seems to me to be rather like having your schoolyard rival taunting you "Awww, c'mon...what are you, chicken?" knowing that the headmaster is walking up behind you, ready to meet out punishment to whoever he sees throwing a punch...
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Dixie »

Agreed [:)]  What is wrong with conserving your forces until a favourable time to strike back?  I'm not going to hide away forever, but neither am I going to sail right up to the KB in early 1942...
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by USSAmerica »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Brave Sir Robin strategy in early to mid '42.  The risk for the Allied player is that Japan will overrun everything.  That should be the Japanese player's goal if the Allied player does not offer battle. 
 
I get a huge kick out of people that insist playing a GAME, instead of recreating historical mistakes, is "gamey."  [:D]
 
 
(OK, maybe I'm a bit of a tainted witness on this topic [;)])
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by Mynok »


Highly tainted......[:D]
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by BrucePowers »

It doesn't seem to be bothering you.[:D] Also he has done a fair job of keeping Kuching closed[:)]
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm with Niceguy and Yava here... I am not going to send my forces into a situation where they will be overwhelmed unless I believe that the payoff is greater than the cost. What I find to be gamey are folks who will throw away their assets on a whim, because they're only 0's and 1's and thus it doesn't really matter if you lose them.

The original post seems to me to be rather like having your schoolyard rival taunting you "Awww, c'mon...what are you, chicken?" knowing that the headmaster is walking up behind you, ready to meet out punishment to whoever he sees throwing a punch...
I have to agree very much with Bradfordkay. Historically the Allies were careful in the use of their carriers. They only committed them to battle when there was something strategically important at stake...too me this is the right doctrine considering that the Allies KNEW that they were still ramping up. That is the rules of engagement I use. That said I still wouldn't risk my carriers even for an important battle unless I felt that they were going into a fight that was at least close to even.

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by ny59giants »

If the Americans lose 2 CVs early to mid '42, it really puts you into a bind of what you can do offensively until they are close to their respawn dates. Hindsight is great when you play a game like WitP. If the Japanese player can have a "Midway" come out in their favor, the Allied player is on his heals until later '43 or later. So a careful use of them is prudent.
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

If the Americans lose 2 CVs early to mid '42, it really puts you into a bind of what you can do offensively until they are close to their respawn dates. Hindsight is great when you play a game like WitP. If the Japanese player can have a "Midway" come out in their favor, the Allied player is on his heals until later '43 or later. So a careful use of them is prudent.
Certainly its tough if the Allies lose CVs and Japan does not. However, I agree with the above poster that the only way to really stop Japan from rolling across the map is to put up a fight.

In my recent game with the AI, in March 42 I traded Yorktown and Hermes for Zuikaku, Shokaku, Hiryu, Soryu, Akagi. Shoho was lost to LBA in the same battle. The Allies had Yorktown, Saratoga, Big E, Lexington, Indomitable and Hermes at the battle. Lexington still was flying Buffalos.

Japan's expansion is effectively done as of the end of March.
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by aphrochine »

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue.  That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers.  While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed.  If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof.  You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space.  Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.
 
The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling.  Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy.  Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.
 
I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue. That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers. While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed. If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof. You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space. Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling. Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy. Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.
Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

Post by steverodgers801 »

Having the intel on what they were doing was a bit of an advantage, how would Nimitz have reacted if he didnt have the intel. dont forget the rampart paranoia about a west coast invasion
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