Digging In

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ColinWright
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RE: Digging In && IV

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: brucekg

As for the general interface, I would be afraid of someone getting to marketeerish and forget that this is a wargame. I never use anything but the symbols, I feel the 3D graphics a lame eye candy and do not convey the same amount of information instantly.


Yeah. For what it's worth, my vote is against any programming going into graphics, etc. I wasn't even aware there was a three-D mode until a year or two back, galanced at it once, and have ignored it since.

If I want graphics, I'll go play one of the Total War series. When it comes to TOAW, it would be depressing to have a TOAW IV whose main claim to fame was great graphics and interface improvements.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
Heldenkaiser
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RE: Digging In

Post by Heldenkaiser »

ORIGINAL: hank
Make the attack planning dialog box "% of turn used" and the "circle of stars" tell the truth thus indicating to a player whether the turn will end early or not. This is a separate issue of whether the battle come out in your favor or not. There's always a risk of each individual battle not coming out as you expect but to suddenly end a turn because of some proficiency check that you're totally unaware of or in control of or whatever is not fair to the player ...

Actually I believe there is a chance that the turn will end "early" after each round of combats, as they are always followed by a force proficiency check. That check failing, the turn ends--regardless of the length and result of the combats in the round. So that's nothing that could be avoided with proper combat planning or more information. It just happens ... a deliberate element of uncertainty.

At least that's my understanding. :)
brucekg
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RE: Digging In

Post by brucekg »

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

ORIGINAL: hank
Make the attack planning dialog box "% of turn used" and the "circle of stars" tell the truth thus indicating to a player whether the turn will end early or not. This is a separate issue of whether the battle come out in your favor or not. There's always a risk of each individual battle not coming out as you expect but to suddenly end a turn because of some proficiency check that you're totally unaware of or in control of or whatever is not fair to the player ...

Actually I believe there is a chance that the turn will end "early" after each round of combats, as they are always followed by a force proficiency check. That check failing, the turn ends--regardless of the length and result of the combats in the round. So that's nothing that could be avoided with proper combat planning or more information. It just happens ... a deliberate element of uncertainty.

At least that's my understanding. :)

I think that that uncertainty is essential. And it is about to lose me Pusan.
hank
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RE: Digging In

Post by hank »

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Actually I believe there is a chance that the turn will end "early" after each round of combats, as they are always followed by a force proficiency check. That check failing, the turn ends--regardless of the length and result of the combats in the round. So that's nothing that could be avoided with proper combat planning or more information. It just happens ... a deliberate element of uncertainty.

At least that's my understanding. :)

That's the way I understand it too, H. I think we started playing this game about the same time and you've sure learned ToaW's intricacies much better than I. I should have known not to question this feature of the game since there's alway a defender to jump up and describe the virtues of "early turn ends". I like your brief description ... It just happens ... and i should just accept it whether I think its realistic or not. ... And I do. I just had too little sleep that night and made some comments I shouldn't have.

Good luck Heldenkaiser
ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: hank

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Actually I believe there is a chance that the turn will end "early" after each round of combats, as they are always followed by a force proficiency check. That check failing, the turn ends--regardless of the length and result of the combats in the round. So that's nothing that could be avoided with proper combat planning or more information. It just happens ... a deliberate element of uncertainty.

At least that's my understanding. :)

That's the way I understand it too, H. I think we started playing this game about the same time and you've sure learned ToaW's intricacies much better than I. I should have known not to question this feature of the game since there's alway a defender to jump up and describe the virtues of "early turn ends". I like your brief description ... It just happens ... and i should just accept it whether I think its realistic or not. ... And I do. I just had too little sleep that night and made some comments I shouldn't have.

Good luck Heldenkaiser

The thing about early turn ending is that while it may be unpleasant, it does provide some of the advantages of 'wego.' Your opponent may not be able to move at the same time as you do, but early turn ending at least creates the possibility that he may not docilely sit there until you have completed all your carefully-calculated combinations.

In other words, it avoids the chess-like artificiality that would arise if you could count on finishing out your turn in peace. In real war, as Molkte said, 'no plan survives contact with the enemy.' Early turn ending makes Moltke's dictum much more likely to be reproduced in OPART.
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cymloveselva
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RE: Digging In

Post by cymloveselva »

i see... digging repeatedly improves digging "time" only...
IronDuke_slith
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RE: Digging In

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: hank

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Actually I believe there is a chance that the turn will end "early" after each round of combats, as they are always followed by a force proficiency check. That check failing, the turn ends--regardless of the length and result of the combats in the round. So that's nothing that could be avoided with proper combat planning or more information. It just happens ... a deliberate element of uncertainty.

At least that's my understanding. :)

That's the way I understand it too, H. I think we started playing this game about the same time and you've sure learned ToaW's intricacies much better than I. I should have known not to question this feature of the game since there's alway a defender to jump up and describe the virtues of "early turn ends". I like your brief description ... It just happens ... and i should just accept it whether I think its realistic or not. ... And I do. I just had too little sleep that night and made some comments I shouldn't have.

Good luck Heldenkaiser

The thing about early turn ending is that while it may be unpleasant, it does provide some of the advantages of 'wego.' Your opponent may not be able to move at the same time as you do, but early turn ending at least creates the possibility that he may not docilely sit there until you have completed all your carefully-calculated combinations.

In other words, it avoids the chess-like artificiality that would arise if you could count on finishing out your turn in peace. In real war, as Molkte said, 'no plan survives contact with the enemy.' Early turn ending makes Moltke's dictum much more likely to be reproduced in OPART.

Agreed, except I would change it. I've seen too many turns burn out whilst a surrounded dug in motorcycle recce regiment held out to the last round to not be irritated by this. An attack on limit losses should last 20% turn time and if no result is forced end as a draw with the player free to resume the attack the following turn if he so pleases. I think it unbalances the entire game.

I appreciate this introduces an element of uncertainty but I don;t think it helps in WEGO. The whole point is both sides get a turn.

I'd agree that all other changes should be gameplay (flexible formations, realistic supply model, better replacement model and better HQ rules and mechanisms to slow sides down) but turn burn is one thing I would remove.

That and some of the size constrictions.

Regards,
IronDuke
ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: hank




That's the way I understand it too, H. I think we started playing this game about the same time and you've sure learned ToaW's intricacies much better than I. I should have known not to question this feature of the game since there's alway a defender to jump up and describe the virtues of "early turn ends". I like your brief description ... It just happens ... and i should just accept it whether I think its realistic or not. ... And I do. I just had too little sleep that night and made some comments I shouldn't have.

Good luck Heldenkaiser

The thing about early turn ending is that while it may be unpleasant, it does provide some of the advantages of 'wego.' Your opponent may not be able to move at the same time as you do, but early turn ending at least creates the possibility that he may not docilely sit there until you have completed all your carefully-calculated combinations.

In other words, it avoids the chess-like artificiality that would arise if you could count on finishing out your turn in peace. In real war, as Molkte said, 'no plan survives contact with the enemy.' Early turn ending makes Moltke's dictum much more likely to be reproduced in OPART.

Agreed, except I would change it. I've seen too many turns burn out whilst a surrounded dug in motorcycle recce regiment held out to the last round to not be irritated by this. An attack on limit losses should last 20% turn time and if no result is forced end as a draw with the player free to resume the attack the following turn if he so pleases. I think it unbalances the entire game.

I appreciate this introduces an element of uncertainty but I don;t think it helps in WEGO. The whole point is both sides get a turn.

I'd agree that all other changes should be gameplay (flexible formations, realistic supply model, better replacement model and better HQ rules and mechanisms to slow sides down) but turn burn is one thing I would remove.

That and some of the size constrictions.

Regards,
IronDuke

My own preference would be to somehow limit the effect: to make the early turn ending affect all units within a (designer set) radius of the unit that 'turn burns.' Or perhaps limited to the formations involved in the combat. Or something.

The primary problem I've had with early turn ending as it stood (other than my turn ending) was that the system basically made it criminal folly to conduct minor attacks. The classic was a scenario that covered the Finnish front and the operations of Army Group North in the Baltic states in 1941.

Well, there you are. You're mounting all these front-wide, army group-level assaults down along the Dvina. Now, should you let Finnish Ski Battalion 39 badger Russian Border Police detachment 38 up somewhere in the tundra?

Better not -- if the attack goes wrong, it'll bring all of Army Group North to a screeching halt. The ski bns just had to let the Russians be. That wasn't too cool.


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IronDuke_slith
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RE: Digging In

Post by IronDuke_slith »


This agrees with my experience. Small units, generally ill supplied, unable to hit anything and therefore shooting ad infinitum. In my case preventing thrree Army Groups from getting forward.

Your ideas would be an option, although in those circumstances where the offending units was a Pzgr Reg, it still seems a little harsh and unhistorical.

It's a big game spoiler, though. I think it needs attention in any future incarnation. I'd also agree that although I'd buy a TOAW IV that was merely a patched TOAW III, I'd be disappointed. TOAW IV should revamp everything or leave well alone, since patching can change the minor stuff over time.
ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


This agrees with my experience. Small units, generally ill supplied, unable to hit anything and therefore shooting ad infinitum. In my case preventing thrree Army Groups from getting forward.

Your ideas would be an option, although in those circumstances where the offending units was a Pzgr Reg, it still seems a little harsh and unhistorical.

It's a big game spoiler, though. I think it needs attention in any future incarnation. I'd also agree that although I'd buy a TOAW IV that was merely a patched TOAW III, I'd be disappointed. TOAW IV should revamp everything or leave well alone, since patching can change the minor stuff over time.

I suspect there isn't a perfect solution; it's just a matter of picking one that avoids the absurd front-wide shutdowns but still offers the unpredictibility that early turn ending simulates. The enemy doesn't just sit there while you execute your brilliant combinations, and you shouldn't be able to count on him doing so. Failing true 'we-go' (which I'm not particularly convinced is practical), I think some form of early turn ending is essential.
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Heldenkaiser
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RE: Digging In

Post by Heldenkaiser »

I tend to think it would be best to have turn-burning attacks affect the individual formation, but not the entire army across the map. So this one division (corps, army, etc.) messed up its attack and finds itself in an awkward position as a result, that's fine. But why should it affect everyone else on the board? [X(]
hank
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RE: Digging In

Post by hank »

I see some others also have reservations about the early turn burns.  I see some good comments that I was unable to put down in words but reflect some of my discontent with how the early turn endings are implemented.  Like a previous post said one lone unit can shut down an entire front during whatever the turn duration is (and in most large battles its at least a one day to one week duration ... give or take).  That does sound quite harsh when compared to reality.

Heldenkaiser hit on one possible improvement by only penalizing the division or regiment the unit that's causing the turn burn belongs to.  ... or possibly all the friendly units in a one or two hex radius gets their MP's zero'ed .... another suggestion.  Just because one unit or hex group is causing a burnout of the turn should that one bad spot on the map penalize the whole army stretched out over a few hundred miles of front.

Just another log on the fire
ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: hank

I see some others also have reservations about the early turn burns. I see some good comments that I was unable to put down in words but reflect some of my discontent with how the early turn endings are implemented. Like a previous post said one lone unit can shut down an entire front during whatever the turn duration is (and in most large battles its at least a one day to one week duration ... give or take). That does sound quite harsh when compared to reality.

... or possibly all the friendly units in a one or two hex radius gets their MP's zero'ed .... another suggestion.

I'd go with a larger radius myself. The unpredictability should be substantial -- just not so universal as to be absurd. Of course, the difference is primarily evidence that the radius should be an editable value. If you want scenario-wide turn ending, just set the value to 300. If you don't want early turn-ending at all, set it to 0.

Make the default 300 and older scenarios won't be affected.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Digging In

Post by Curtis Lemay »

Let's be sure we're not mixing terms here. There are basically three mechanisms that can cause your turn to end early:

1. You screw up (or, do so deliberately for some important reason) and attack with a unit that has expended most of its movement allowance already. There are tools in the game now to alert you to this mistake - the circle of stars, etc. That ought to be enough. In fact, it can be an important tactical option, so should be retained.

2. You randomly suffer a Force Proficency Check failure. This is an important feature that somewhat counters some of the IGOUGO issues. It must be retained.

3. One of your attacks lasts longer than expected and burns up most of the turn. This is the only one that is controversial. Note that we've already added one feature to address it: Max Rounds Per Battle (MRPB) - set in the editor. For further addressing it check out item 1.15 in the wishlist (an idea from Rhinobones):

1.15 Multiple round combats placed in “engaged” mode while other units are allowed to finish movement (but still subject to Force Proficiency check).
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brucekg
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RE: Digging In

Post by brucekg »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Let's be sure we're not mixing terms here. There are basically three mechanisms that can cause your turn to end early:

1. You screw up (or, do so deliberately for some important reason) and attack with a unit that has expended most of its movement allowance already. There are tools in the game now to alert you to this mistake - the circle of stars, etc. That ought to be enough. In fact, it can be an important tactical option, so should be retained.

2. You randomly suffer a Force Proficency Check failure. This is an important feature that somewhat counters some of the IGOUGO issues. It must be retained.

3. One of your attacks lasts longer than expected and burns up most of the turn. This is the only one that is controversial. Note that we've already added one feature to address it: Max Rounds Per Battle (MRPB) - set in the editor. For further addressing it check out item 1.15 in the wishlist (an idea from Rhinobones):

1.15 Multiple round combats placed in “engaged” mode while other units are allowed to finish movement (but still subject to Force Proficiency check).

Thank you for a clear and concise summarization.

ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

2. You randomly suffer a Force Proficency Check failure. This is an important feature that somewhat counters some of the IGOUGO issues. It must be retained.

I'm beginning to wonder if it still functions in the first place.

In one scenario I'm play-testing, the British are dialed all the way down to 50%. I've yet to see them get off fewer than three rounds.
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ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


2. You randomly suffer a Force Proficency Check failure. This is an important feature that somewhat counters some of the IGOUGO issues. It must be retained.

Yeah -- but the difficulty is that one is still penalized for mounting minor attacks. Let's suppose I've got a wave of assaults I could make with none of the turn gone, a secondary attack I could launch at 40%, and a couple of fairly important ones to make that will use 80% of the turn.

I'd be crazy to launch the 40% attack without launching the 80% attacks simultaneously. This is the problem with the system. Since the effects are universal, you can't risk that attack with Ski Battalion 39. It might halt Panzer Group Kleist down in the Ukraine -- simply because the check will be carried out.

So while I certainly appreciate the need for early turn ending, I don't think it works to make the effect universal -- whether you see it as coming from one combat or as coming from a general check. The simple fact that one will risk undergoing the check if one makes a given attack suffices to produce unreasonable disincentives to attack.

One could say that I in fact don't want true early turn ending. What I want is for the turn to end for specific areas of the front.



3. One of your attacks lasts longer than expected and burns up most of the turn. This is the only one that is controversial. Note that we've already added one feature to address it: Max Rounds Per Battle (MRPB) - set in the editor. For further addressing it check out item 1.15 in the wishlist (an idea from Rhinobones):

1.15 Multiple round combats placed in “engaged” mode while other units are allowed to finish movement (but still subject to Force Proficiency check).

That's a rather good idea -- assuming it's practical to program. However, note that if it is implemented, the likelihood of other forms of turn ending should be increased.
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brucekg
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RE: Digging In

Post by brucekg »

With a thread having wandered off this bad, you should really start a new thread. Otherwise people interested in this new discussion just aren't going to expect to find it under "Digging In".

But, I am finding it informative.
ColinWright
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RE: Digging In

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: brucekg

With a thread having wandered off this bad, you should really start a new thread. Otherwise people interested in this new discussion just aren't going to expect to find it under "Digging In".

But, I am finding it informative.

Be thankful we haven't gotten onto the Republican Primary.

I've never bothered much about worrying about threads wandering off topic. They always do that. As to finding a given topic -- think of it as a challenge. I often wind up searching the recent posts of whoever it was who was saying something on the subject.
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brucekg
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RE: Digging In

Post by brucekg »


Marines and political wackos, now I am calling the SP. Out of my bar, the lot of you.

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