Taming Expansion of IJ Production

[treespider]

Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

Most of that gets issued when the unit is organised and lasts several years.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: treespider

Something you guys need to consider - when those combat units are in the rear areas...you have all kinds of supply expenditures. There are items you would not consider as necessarily essential but they existed - things like tents, storage facilities, laundering, paperwork for requisitions, etc etc etc...and all of those supplies in the Pacific theater needed to be shipped....and they took up space on those ships.

Most of that gets issued when the unit is organised and lasts several years.

I beg to differ...as an example

from Quartermaster Corps: Operations in the war against Japan,


Page 201

...local scarcities of "expendable" items, that is items consumed in use, such as napkins, tooth paste, and insecticides, were often particularly severe. Of sixty five expendable items requisitioned from Oro bay base by the Fifth Air force in November 1943, only thirteen were on hand in the necessary quantities. Thirty-one were not obtainable at all and twenty-one only in quantities less than required. To replenish exhausted supplies, stop gap shipments of the most urgently needed stores were made by air from Port Moresby, the sole base in new guinea with adequate stocks of the scarce items. Among the articles forwarded were insect repellants, toilet paper, brooms, scrub brushes and spoons.

Page 204,

Tentage and Tarpaulins

Several factors combined to make tentage chronically scarce. In addition to the sizable inroads made on base stocks by issues of tents to organizations coming from the United States without those supposed to accompany them, tents lost through wear and tear of combat operations had to be replaced. Whole divisions sometimes had to be re-equipped. This need arose after the 1st Marine Division arrived in Australia, fresh from the savage fighting on Guadacanal, and after the 32d Division lost the bulk of its tentage during operations in New Guinea.

Page 206

Footwear and leather goods in general were subject to fairly rapid deterioration, chiefly because of fats and oils employed in tanning leather.

All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: treespider
All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

You’re going way overboard here. Sure these items were shipped and took up shipping, but they were not needed for a unit’s survival and should therefore not be included in daily requirements. Instead the way to handle these kinds of *plush* items would be to give units a bonus to their disabled equipment recovery rolls and morale recovery/sustainment rolls when needed supplies are exceeded by a certain percentage of on hand supplies.

So if a unit needs 1000 supplies a month to sustain itself and it has 1500 supplies available (and no other unit needs the extra 500) it gets a bonus to its rolls.

Units begin to attrition away and die when short required supplies, so including toilet paper and bug repellant as required supply is not logical. These items enhanced a unit’s comfort level, but the lack of these items didn’t cause units to wither away and die.

Jim

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: treespider
All of that stuff needed to be shipped and took up shipping space.

You’re going way overboard here. Sure these items were shipped and took up shipping, but they were not needed for a unit’s survival and should therefore not be included in daily requirements. Instead the way to handle these kinds of *plush* items would be to give units a bonus to their disabled equipment recovery rolls and morale recovery/sustainment rolls when needed supplies are exceeded by a certain percentage of on hand supplies.

So if a unit needs 1000 supplies a month to sustain itself and it has 1500 supplies available (and no other unit needs the extra 500) it gets a bonus to its rolls.

Units begin to attrition away and die when short required supplies, so including toilet paper and bug repellant as required supply is not logical. These items enhanced a unit’s comfort level, but the lack of these items didn’t cause units to wither away and die.

Jim

But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: treespider
But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

Japan’s civilian economy demanded and used the majority of Japan’s available shipping. Making the land army try and utilize enough supply to replicate that extra demand is like sticking chewing gum in the hole of a car’s flat tire, it just isn’t going to work.

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK’s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy, or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can’t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

In the past they reduced the carrying capacity of each ship to try and get it to work right. That certainly didn’t work, and I guarantee raising the supply demands of units isn’t going to either. Units daily supply requirements are too critical to their survival to try and force them to have typewriters and other non-essential stuff as their daily intake.

As I said giving units with a surplus of supply a bonus would be the way to handle that, not penalizing them with disablements and death because the left their typewriters back at headquarters.

Jim

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: treespider
But what you are forgetting Jim is that all of this stuff (whether it is essential for survival or not) needs shipping... Shipping means ships....ships mean targets to sink...sunk ships means a need for more ships....more ships means a drain on industry to build them...more ships moving means more fuel consumption...more fuel consumption means less fuel for Battleships...fuel consumption means less fuel for Invasion convoys....etc etc etc

Japan’s civilian economy demanded and used the majority of Japan’s available shipping.

Per the United States Strategic Bombing Survey report #54 page 59

After the start of the War the majority of the cargo shipping was utilized by the military.

Pearl Harbor to Guadacanal - As described elsewhere one of the most important features of the japanese preparations for war was a very intensive requisitioning of ships by the Army and Navy. This activity began in earnest in July 1941and in the 5 months preceding pearl Harbor 2 1/2 million ton of civilian shipping, thecream of the merchant marine, were taken by the Army and navy. Japan entered the war with her merchant fleet distributed approximately as follows: Army 2,163,000 tons , Navy 1,899,000 tons , civilian 1,934,000 tons....It was therefore expected and promised that the bulk of the 2 1/2 million tons taken by the military in the latter part of 1941 would be transferred to civilian control immediately after the completion of the initial plan for conquest....At what point in the war the Japanese were awakened to reality is hard to estimate, but it was plain early in 1942 that the return of any substantial portion of the 2 1/2 million tons was out of the question.

Making the land army try and utilize enough supply to replicate that extra demand is like sticking chewing gum in the hole of a car’s flat tire, it just isn’t going to work.

I'm not saying the land units wneed to replicate the civilian economy....I'm saying the military routinely used shipping to move non-essential supplies. That process burned fuel and used ships all of which affects the economy as a whole.

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK’s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy,

which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply

or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can’t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.

In the past they reduced the carrying capacity of each ship to try and get it to work right. That certainly didn’t work, and I guarantee raising the supply demands of units isn’t going to either. Units daily supply requirements are too critical to their survival to try and force them to have typewriters and other non-essential stuff as their daily intake.

there are other solutions...

As I said giving units with a surplus of supply a bonus would be the way to handle that, not penalizing them with disablements and death because the left their typewriters back at headquarters.

Jim

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Either reduce the amount of Japanese AK’s available for use in game to simulate the needs of the civilian economy,

which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply

or create a civilian economy that demands the majority of the ships be used in non-war fighting duties. If you can add a new *light* industry, why can’t you create a new *food* resource? Then require every industry point to use 4 food before it can produce anything and walla problem solved. Japan now needs 5 times as much shipping to bring home food and resources to get their industry going and they get no more supply produced by that industry than they did before.

Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.


there are other solutions...

Guys, please don't give IJ even more dirt to take care of. It's hard enough as it is, you could probably make it hard enough that no one would want to play IJ![;)] Just take AKs away....take lots of AKs away. IJ has far too much shipping available for military use. And it's too easy to build even more, if that's what you decide you want to have.

[okami]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns




which would place even less pressure on the fuel supply



Not a bad idea...however Food imports only constitued 30% of the metric tonnage imported by the Japanese.


there are other solutions...

Guys, please don't give IJ even more dirt to take care of. It's hard enough as it is, you could probably make it hard enough that no one would want to play IJ![;)] Just take AKs away....take lots of AKs away. IJ has far too much shipping available for military use. And it's too easy to build even more, if that's what you decide you want to have.

Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

[witpqs]

Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

That might make air supply drops impossible.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: okami
Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

No because then you run into the problem of not being able to load a ship with its historically correct load. Some divisions were loaded onto one ship during the war, but because they reduced historical load abilities already, you need lots of ships to load a division. One AK could carry enough supplies to feed an entire Corps of troops, but if you increase load costs it will take x number more AK’s to achieve the same thing one AK could do historically.

The problem in game stems from the fact the Japanese civilian economy demanded (as did all nations civilian economies) most of the Japanese tonnage during the war. In fact Japanese planners had to temporarily requisition over 1,000,000 tons of shipping from civilian authorities to conduct their early campaigns in the Pacific. Within 6 months of the start of the war this tonnage was no longer under military control.

I think the best solution is to simply demand that each factory use 6 oil and 6 supplies a day to produce what it normally produces now. The one for one system we have now makes it too easy to lift the needed resources and oil home to feed the industry. A lot more stuff that isn’t modeled in game was needed in Japan to keep its industry humming and people fed.

If you simply make the formula for producing 1 point of supply 5 to 6 times more expensive, you suddenly put a serious strain on the shipping without affecting other areas of the game. Since resource centers and oil centers no longer produce supply and fuel as byproducts, increasing their sizes by 5 or 6 times shouldn’t have any affect at all on the game.

Jim

[Ken Estes]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

If you simply make the formula for producing 1 point of supply 5 to 6 times more expensive, you suddenly put a serious strain on the shipping without affecting other areas of the game. Since resource centers and oil centers no longer produce supply and fuel as byproducts, increasing their sizes by 5 or 6 times shouldn’t have any affect at all on the game.

Jim

By George, I think you've got it! Excellent.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Ken Estes

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

If you simply make the formula for producing 1 point of supply 5 to 6 times more expensive, you suddenly put a serious strain on the shipping without affecting other areas of the game. Since resource centers and oil centers no longer produce supply and fuel as byproducts, increasing their sizes by 5 or 6 times shouldn’t have any affect at all on the game.

Jim

By George, I think you've got it! Excellent.

Like I said there are other solutions and if you look at the numbers they do not need to be anything so dramatic as x5 or x6.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: okami
Can't you just increase the load cost of all items and then it would take more ships to load the same stuff? Increase the load/unload speeds so that it does not take any more time to load/unload. Then we could have the same number of ships but less over capacity.

No because then you run into the problem of not being able to load a ship with its historically correct load. Some divisions were loaded onto one ship during the war, but because they reduced historical load abilities already, you need lots of ships to load a division. One AK could carry enough supplies to feed an entire Corps of troops, but if you increase load costs it will take x number more AK’s to achieve the same thing one AK could do historically.

The problem in game stems from the fact the Japanese civilian economy demanded (as did all nations civilian economies) most of the Japanese tonnage during the war. In fact Japanese planners had to temporarily requisition over 1,000,000 tons of shipping from civilian authorities to conduct their early campaigns in the Pacific. Within 6 months of the start of the war this tonnage was no longer under military control.

I think the best solution is to simply demand that each factory use 6 oil and 6 supplies a day to produce what it normally produces now. The one for one system we have now makes it too easy to lift the needed resources and oil home to feed the industry. A lot more stuff that isn’t modeled in game was needed in Japan to keep its industry humming and people fed.

If you simply make the formula for producing 1 point of supply 5 to 6 times more expensive, you suddenly put a serious strain on the shipping without affecting other areas of the game. Since resource centers and oil centers no longer produce supply and fuel as byproducts, increasing their sizes by 5 or 6 times shouldn’t have any affect at all on the game.

Jim

I like it. No doubt needs to be tested. What we need is an ability to adjust this ratio in the editor and not have the bloody thing hardcoded like it was in the 2004 release. That way everybody will benefit.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: treespider
Like I said there are other solutions and if you look at the numbers they do not need to be anything so dramatic as x5 or x6.

Well it will be needed if you give ships the ability to actually carry their historical loads. If you're going to fix the problem, you may as well start by giving ships back their proper lift capacities first.

Jim

[Ron Saueracker]

Just a thought...given that Japan has so many production options and the Allies...well, nada, what about allowing the allies the ability to convert Cleveland class CLs and Baltimore class CAs into Independence class and Saipan class CVLs, like the merchant conversions work (AK - AR etc)?

[tsimmonds]

JFYI the Saipans were not conversions, they were CVLs from the keel up. Hulls similar to Baltimores, but not conversions.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Just a thought...given that Japan has so many production options and the Allies...well, nada, what about allowing the allies the ability to convert Cleveland class CLs and Baltimore class CAs into Independence class and Saipan class CVLs, like the merchant conversions work (AK - AR etc)?

later in the game, the Allies lack more CLs/CAs than CVs...

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Just a thought...given that Japan has so many production options and the Allies...well, nada, what about allowing the allies the ability to convert Cleveland class CLs and Baltimore class CAs into Independence class and Saipan class CVLs, like the merchant conversions work (AK - AR etc)?

The decision to convert to the Independence class was essentially prewar. The Saipans were to cover wartime losses.

[Sneer]

as far as fuel situation in well developed and running far above historical pace game
/from memory /
in my 43 game i had some problem with fuel all over the map / below 100k storaged in major hubs on defensive lines and little to bring from HI /
even when i had oil more or less intact taken
+ whole china resources
+ eastern india resources
reasons :
i had almost no fleet losses and used my ships when i wanted them moving
results
problems with servicing fleet ops in longer periods of time happened
it worked only because i had almost all AOs in replenishment fleet behind fleet

so it is not like over grown Japanese economy has no fuel problem
i had to limit myself in 44
not to bombing my stockpiles
not to loosing tankers
but because my fleet was constantly burning more i produced and i had slowly diminishing fuel reserves / japan usually doesn;t need fuel in '45 so it wasn;t my concern btw/



p.s. i'm really happy to play AE and to back to community again