Add Civil Disorder Rule from old boardgame?

[ecn1]

Hi All,

This is discussion is somewhat based on this thread (tm.asp?m=1674096) but I wanted a more focused thread to discuss whether the civil disorder rule should be added to the computer game.

It old EiA it was 8.7 "The Civil Disorder Step". Basically, if no home manpower is collected during the econ phase (basically every home provincial capital is enemy controlled) - all the terroritories of the country becomed ceded except for the capital province and the country surrenders unconditionally.

The reason I suggest this addition, is that the threat of this happening lead countries to surrender unconditionally before it happened. This threat is the only way to really force players to surrender unconditionally, otherwise they will just fight it out beyond all hope....

any comments here?

erik

[dude]

Actually the rule is "...that major power goes into "civil disorder" and that major power is PERMANETLY eliminated from the map..." 
 
The major doesn't just surrender... it's eliminated.  But it is a good reason so surrender anyways... So are you asking to have it implimented as written in the rules or modiefied so the power isn't elimiated but crippled?
 
Dude

[DCWhitworth]

Isn't there an optional rule (in the board game) that says rather than being eliminated the country must immediately surrender to everyone it is at war with and accept any kind of peace ?

[dude]

Optional Rules
 
11.9.1.2: No major power with a player may ever go into civil disorder.  Ingnore 8.7.1 through 8.7.5 for a major pwoer with a palyer that meets the civil disorder requirements (see 8.7) and, instead, require that player to sue for and accept any type of peace during the next Peace Step with all major powers with which that major power was at war when the civil disorder conditions were met.
 
This is what you all are thinking of.
 
Dude
 

[dude]

More...
 
The above rule was part of 11.9 Political Restictions On Peace.  The rule below was another good one from that section.
 
11.9.1.1 Restrictions on Territorial Losses - no major power with a player may ever have its home nation reduced by more than a total of three provinces.
 
 

[Murat]

Well that helps the larger land nations like France and Russia while punishing Prussia (and some others to a lesser degree). 

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: dude

More...

The above rule was part of 11.9 Political Restictions On Peace.  The rule below was another good one from that section.

11.9.1.1 Restrictions on Territorial Losses - no major power with a player may ever have its home nation reduced by more than a total of three provinces.

Heh, i thought it was down to 3.
Silly me.

Regards
Bresh

[timewalker03]

This is the rule:

[ 8.7 ] THE CIVIL DISORDER STEP: If, during any Economic Phase, a major power can collect no home nation manpower, that major power goes into "civil disorder" and that major power is permanently out of the game and all of its home nation forces are permanently eliminated from the map.
8.7.1: All conquered minor countries of the major power undergoing civil disorder pass to the control of the major power occupying the major power's capital.
8.7.2: Controlled minor free states of the major power undergoing civil disorder become neutral if no enemy forces control their capital. If a capital is controlled, their control passes to the major power occupying their capital.
8.7.3: Each of that major power's home nation provinces are ceded to the major power controlling the provincial capital. EXCEPTION: Where no major power controls the provincial capital, that province passes to the major power controlling the national capital. These provinces are now all considered to be ceded provinces.
8.7.4: If the forces of two or more major powers are placed to dispute claims to territory arising from civil disorder (ie., mixed forces occupy a capital city), the involved major powers may decide on control in any mutually agreeable manner, or, if unable to agree, may use competitive die rolls to determine the new controlling major power (the modifiers from 4.6.2 apply to these die rolls for disputed minor countries).
8.7.5: Each major power at war with the major power undergoing civil disorder gains 5 political points, the same as if the major power in civil disorder had surrendered unconditionally.

This is the optional rule from the original rules:

11.9.1.2 RESTRICTIONS ON CIVIL DISORDER: No major power with a player may ever go into civil disorder. Ignore 8.7.1 through 8.7.5 for a major power with a player that meets the civil disorder requirements (see 8.7) and, instead, require that player to sue for and accept any type of peace during the next Peace Step with all major powers with which that major power was at war when the civil disorder conditions were met.

[delatbabel]

Be aware that the optional rule, as written, still does not entirely stop a player from being eliminated from the game.

4.4.8 A FINAL PEACE: If, as a result of a formal peace, a major power's province containing its home nation's capital is ceded (which can only be done if no alternate province is available for ceding), that major power is permanently out of the game and all of its home nation forces are permanently eliminated from the map.

Basically means that if you lose your capital province, you're out.

[ 11.9 ] * POLITICAL RESTRICTIONS ON PEACE:
11.9.1 "BALANCE OF POWER" RESTRICTIONS ON LOSSES: No matter how the major powers' rulers may have wanted to dominate the local landscape, they were all, to some extent, committed to leaving at least a "rump" of territory and authority to their peers. This also guarantees that any player who starts a game can still be in it when it ends. This can be reflected in two options, either or both of which can be used in a game:
11.9.1.1 RESTRICTIONS ON TERRITORIAL LOSSES: No major power with a player may ever have its home nation reduced by more than a total of three provinces.
11.9.1.2 RESTRICTIONS ON CIVIL DISORDER: No major power with a player may ever go into civil disorder. Ignore 8.7.1 through 8.7.5 for a major power with a player that meets the civil disorder requirements (see 8.7) and instead require that player to sue for and accept any type of peace during the next Peace Step with all major powers with which that major power was at war when the civil disorder conditions were met.

This is the rule that's supposed to stop a player being elminated by having their last province taken. It doesn't, however, work that way as written because of the wording of the victory condition C.4 on the game card:

C.4 Cede any combination of 3 provinces and/or minor countries of the victor's choice ... The provinces may not contain the loser's capital city unless no other unceded province is available ...

It's not hard to concoct a situation where the loser must still cede their capital city and be removed from the game. For example: Britain and Turkey are at war, Turkey is also at war with (for example) Austria and Russia. Austria and Russia have occupied all of the Turkish capital cities except Constantinople. Along comes a British fleet, deposits some British corps in Turkey and they march off to Constantinople, besiege it, break in, eliminate the defenders, and occupy the city (unbesieged). Now, according to 11.9.1.2 Turkey must unconditionally surrender to all powers it is at war with. Britain, in its turn to pick victory conditions, chooses C.4. Now there are no Turkish provinces adjacent to British territory, and there is only one Turkish province (Anatolia) containing British corps -- therefore Turkey must cede Anatolia to Britain, and therefore according to rule 4.4.8 is now out of the game.

Now I'm not suggesting anyone plays this way -- we hit this in a FTF game once and immediately came up with a house rule saying that the Turkish player could not cede Anatolia in this way. However if you're writing code to implement all of the above rules then it needs to be tested carefully in case the combination of cases does end up with the ability to have one player removed from the game when this is not the intention.

[Soapy Frog]

11.9 Political Restrictions on Peace was a "required" optional in EVERY single game of EiA I have ever played.

[AresMars]

I have to agree with Soapy....Who wants to play a game of this length and be eliminated?
 
Mind you - some players are stupid, pig headed, dont listen to reason or refuse to stay focused on HOW TO PLAY to WIN and deserve this!
 
Eliminating a country is not ever required (at least in my experience) to gain enough PP and VP to win the game.
 
 
 
 
 
 

[pzgndr]

Mind you - some players are stupid, pig headed, dont listen to reason or refuse to stay focused on HOW TO PLAY to WIN and deserve this!

And to think some folks say the AI can never be as good as a human...

[praem]

Delibatel. In the situation you describe, Anatolia isnt a legal choice for Brittain. She can not cede the capital province as per the rules, and consequently she can take no provinces - she could take any minors however.
If not playing with 11.9, then Anatolia would be British and the other provinces either Austrian or Russian depenting on who controls it, and Turkey is no more.
 

[AresMars]

Pzgndr - you can kick those type of people out of the game (and we have done this!) - or you can _ try _ and reason with them....
 
A Game Aid Instruction (AI) is limited to its programming.  Your point has some value!  [;)]
 
The HUMAN FACTOR can sometimes be VERY disappointing....

[dude]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

Be aware that the optional rule, as written, still does not entirely stop a player from being eliminated from the game.

4.4.8 A FINAL PEACE: If, as a result of a formal peace, a major power's province containing its home nation's capital is ceded (which can only be done if no alternate province is available for ceding), that major power is permanently out of the game and all of its home nation forces are permanently eliminated from the map.

Basically means that if you lose your capital province, you're out.

[ 11.9 ] * POLITICAL RESTRICTIONS ON PEACE:
11.9.1 "BALANCE OF POWER" RESTRICTIONS ON LOSSES: No matter how the major powers' rulers may have wanted to dominate the local landscape, they were all, to some extent, committed to leaving at least a "rump" of territory and authority to their peers. This also guarantees that any player who starts a game can still be in it when it ends. This can be reflected in two options, either or both of which can be used in a game:
11.9.1.1 RESTRICTIONS ON TERRITORIAL LOSSES: No major power with a player may ever have its home nation reduced by more than a total of three provinces.
11.9.1.2 RESTRICTIONS ON CIVIL DISORDER: No major power with a player may ever go into civil disorder. Ignore 8.7.1 through 8.7.5 for a major power with a player that meets the civil disorder requirements (see 8.7) and instead require that player to sue for and accept any type of peace during the next Peace Step with all major powers with which that major power was at war when the civil disorder conditions were met.

This is the rule that's supposed to stop a player being elminated by having their last province taken. It doesn't, however, work that way as written because of the wording of the victory condition C.4 on the game card:

C.4 Cede any combination of 3 provinces and/or minor countries of the victor's choice ... The provinces may not contain the loser's capital city unless no other unceded province is available ...

...

... however since 11.9.1.1 limits a major power to losing no more than 3 provinces they cannot be eliminated, ever. What nation has three or less home provinces? They all have at least four correct? (GB has: England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland correct?) So even if someone took three provinces in one war... the next time no one else could take any if the nation was still missing three provinces. It does not matter what C.4 says... You can't reduce the nation by more than 3 provinces. At least this was the way I've always seen it played.

Also they way we interpeted C.4 was that even (in your example) if GB was only able to pick Anatolia it was not a valid choice since other provinces were still unceded... even though GB wasn't eligible to pick them...

Basically 11.9.1.1 makes it impossible for a victor to choose a National Capital as a ceded province. Since you'll never reduce the nation below 3 provinces leaving only the capital to pick. Which is what it was partially ment to do. Can you see GB being forced to cede England? while say Scotland was all that was left?

Dude

[ecn1]

i think the original point of this post is getting lost in the minutia of rule quoting at each other with no real contribution here..

No matter how you slice or dice it, the “civil disorder” rule in the original game was a stick to ensure that players did not continue playing past all reasonable hope of winning a war…

However, in this version of EiA, such an incentive to surrender does not exist... the national capital and the all provincial capitals may be enemy controlled, but the player can continue fighting…especially as allied players can just lend them money to pay for maintenance, etc…

What I would recommend is that when this situation occurs, that countries are required to unconditionally surrender to all other countries at which they are war..(not cease to exist)

I think that is a realistic outcome and should be implemented in the next patch…

Comments on this idea?

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: dude

Can you see GB being forced to cede England? while say Scotland was all that was left?

Dude

Ah; but the House of Stuart shal rise again.
Vive Bonnie Prince Charlie - the rightful king of England.

[Soapy Frog]

ecn1: I fully agree. We have always played with rule 11.9, with forced surrender if all national + provincial capitals are occupied unbesieged.
 
I am am a little nonplussed that this simple rule is not already in the game.

[Grognot]

They can lend you money, but they can't lend you manpower, so you can't replace or replenish your demolished corps if all your capitals are held.  You're also losing PP while your capital is occupied, and once it drops too low, any minors you still have go *poof* (or, at least, are supposed to; the AI still retains minors in the Fiasco Zone, if it has corps present).  Stay down for a year, and you've lost the same 8 PP (-2 / economic phase for capital occupation) as if you'd unconditionally surrendered, as well as probable opportunity cost (had you surrendered earlier, you might have started to rebuild and have a better chance to score more PP).

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Well that helps the larger land nations like France and Russia while punishing Prussia (and some others to a lesser degree). 

True. However, Prussia needs a very small total of VP compared to France, too. I believe this is taken into account in the VP needs.