Conducting ASW ops?

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MarkShot
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Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

What is the best way to resolve a imprecise sub contact with ASW helos?

This is one of those yellow sub contacts surrounded by an area of probability that grows with time. It may have come about via SOSUS, a sonobuoy, or passive detection. Now, of course, you can immediately let loose a torpedo or two. However, it seems that in such cases you have very little chance of a kill. On the other hand, if you have resolved the contact and have a red marker and then drop a torpedo on it, it seems your chances of a kill is near 90%.

So, clearly, it is best to resolve the sub's exact location if you can. It even seems that a red contact is still much better than a yellow contact and a very tight area of probability.

I am aware of the follow techniques to resolve the contact:

(1) Place 2-4 ASW helos around the initial contact bracketing it and hover them (thus forcing the use of dipping sonar). This has worked about 50% of the time. I think when it hasn't worked that the sub in question has gone deep to evade my helos.

(2) Order the subs to attack and the AI will often report that it needs a better fix on the target and ask you to give that order. Thus, so order that the ASW helos conduct a search. I haven't seemed to have much luck with this resolving anything. It just seems to put me a bingo fuel.

(3) Plot a series of waypoints for a number of helos to conduct barrier patrols along the perimeters of the area of uncertainty. Then use F2 to set them to HOVER/VLOW every five minutes such that they are moving around the area and dipping. I have not tried this approach yet.

---

So, what's the best situation to resolve a contact in this case?

Will you only use your helos or will bring in DDs and hammer away with active sonar? If so, what's the best procedure for this?

Will you bring in an OHP or some other ship with a towed array to assist in the search? If so, what's the best procedure for this?

---

When tasked to try to close a lane of movement to enemy subs do you mainly conduct a barrier patrol with your SAG or do you aggressively run down contacts as they get reported instead of remain relatively static? Orginally, I was relatively static, but I concluded that that yielded the initiative to the enemy allowing him to position multiple subs in place for a coordinated attack. By aggressively pursuing contacts, I seem to have a better chance of not having to deal with multiple subs simultaneously.

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I know that it is safest to use my helos to hunt down a suspected sub. What do most people do when the helos run out of fuel and RTB? Do you withdraw the SAG while the helos refuel or do you stay close and on station?

---

Thanks very much in advance to whomever entertains all these tedious noob questions!!!
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mack2
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by mack2 »

Probably stick the helos in the vlow/hover pattern using their dipping sonar, if the player can spare one, throw up a line of sonobouys in a line between the uncertain contact and the group you are defending.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by NefariousKoel »

Lay a line of sonos as mack said.  If I had helos with dipping sonar, I'd put them on the far side of where I think he might be and start pinging active with the Dipsonar back & forth in another parallel line (behind the sub) and drive it towards the sonos.  That's if the AI subs will try to get away from an active sonar. [&:]
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

Two things: (GIUK - Hide and Seek Scenario)

(1) How to confirm your helos have dipping sonar. I haven't noticed anything in the display window.

(2) I don't have any luck with sonobuoys. I hit the "." key and I don't seem to generate any little black boxes. Am I doing it wrong?

Thanks.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by JudgeDredd »

If it's the same scenario I'm thinking of, your helos don't have dipping sonar...but I am like you in that I'm not sure how to tell. There are some nice fancy official names for pieces of equipment, but they mean nothing to me.

Were the helo is selected and you can see the torpedos it carries and "12 Sonobouys" it would be nice to see here whether it has a dipping sonar. If this dialog DOES tell you whether it has or not, then I have not come across a mission where any of my helos have dipping sonar.
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Stalintc
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by Stalintc »

Hi Mark, the way I understand things to be is the following

1) If a helicopter has a dipping sonar, you should see a sonar button under the unit info which you can click and it will appear as a D on the chart with its range plotted.

2) You will only see the black box for the sonobuoys in the unit window, plus you need to make sure you have "show sonobuoys" ticked in one of the options menus, might be "game options" (sorry for vagueness im at work hehehe) check that first.

I hope this helps you!

Cheers

PS I may even update this when I get home from work, cant see my HCE from here :(
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by CV32 »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
What is the best way to resolve a imprecise sub contact with ASW helos? This is one of those yellow sub contacts surrounded by an area of probability that grows with time. It may have come about via SOSUS, a sonobuoy, or passive detection. Now, of course, you can immediately let loose a torpedo or two. However, it seems that in such cases you have very little chance of a kill. On the other hand, if you have resolved the contact and have a red marker and then drop a torpedo on it, it seems your chances of a kill is near 90%. So, clearly, it is best to resolve the sub's exact location if you can. It even seems that a red contact is still much better than a yellow contact and a very tight area of probability.

Your observation about hit probability (PH) dropping dramatically when you don't have a good fix is well founded. Its a good practise to keep a tight grip on those torps (or depth charges, etc) until you have that solid fix.

PH will vary widely between torpedo types, but you're giving the weapon its best chance to find and home onto a submarine by dropping it as close as possible to the target. That said, I've dropped plenty of modern, expensive (virtual) torpedoes with nothing to show for it.
I am aware of the follow techniques to resolve the contact:
Place 2-4 ASW helos around the initial contact bracketing it and hover them (thus forcing the use of dipping sonar). This has worked about 50% of the time. I think when it hasn't worked that the sub in question has gone deep to evade my helos.

That's not a bad success rate. Trying to bracket the contact is certainly a solid tactic.
Plot a series of waypoints for a number of helos to conduct barrier patrols along the perimeters of the area of uncertainty. Then use F2 to set them to HOVER/VLOW every five minutes such that they are moving around the area and dipping. I have not tried this approach yet.

This is a favorite of mine. If you have any idea of where the submarine is heading (keeping in mind that a good sub skipper is always attempting to break contact toward his objective if he can do so), you can set up sonobuoy barriers and hope that the submarine crosses one of them. Keep in mind the sonobuoy life of one hour.
So, what's the best situation to resolve a contact in this case? Will you only use your helos or will bring in DDs and hammer away with active sonar? If so, what's the best procedure for this?

I hardly ever use a surface ship's active sonar. Usually only when the contact is very close, I've already been shot at, and I'm attempting to counter-attack. The dipping sonar/sonobuoy equipped helicopter is, however, a powerful ASW tool and should be exploited to the max. I often lay sonobuoy barriers and then hammer the area of uncertainty with dipping sonar.
Will you bring in an OHP or some other ship with a towed array to assist in the search? If so, what's the best procedure for this?

A towed array is a very valuable ASW tool. It will only be useful to you, however, if you can get the array in range of the contact, deploy it at an acoustically feasible speed (i.e. as slow as possible), and avoid getting torpedoed in the process.
When tasked to try to close a lane of movement to enemy subs do you mainly conduct a barrier patrol with your SAG or do you aggressively run down contacts as they get reported instead of remain relatively static? Orginally, I was relatively static, but I concluded that that yielded the initiative to the enemy allowing him to position multiple subs in place for a coordinated attack. By aggressively pursuing contacts, I seem to have a better chance of not having to deal with multiple subs simultaneously.

Submarines are ambush predators. By taking the fight to the enemy, as you have described, you hope to deny him the power of ambush. I think this is why you have success. There is risk in this method, of course, because generally speaking his subsurface sensors are often better than yours.
I know that it is safest to use my helos to hunt down a suspected sub. What do most people do when the helos run out of fuel and RTB? Do you withdraw the SAG while the helos refuel or do you stay close and on station?

I try to rotate helo patrols as much as possible, such that some aircraft are always in the air while others are refueling/rearming. I keep a reserve ready to pounce on a contact once it has been localized. A surface ship with a good towed array should be close by.
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MarkShot
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

Brad,

Thanks for all that information (meaning the time it takes to read and write it ... I've done forum support before so I know)!
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by CV32 »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
Brad, Thanks for all that information (meaning the time it takes to read and write it ... I've done forum support before so I know)!

You're welcome. Hope it helps. [:)]
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by Owl »

I have found that the AI doesn't use its search too well with multiple aircraft.  It always seems to start at one end of the search dimond (usually it's an unknown area of dimond shape) and drops S.buoys along the long axis until it runs out.  If you have 3 helos they'll all do the same thing, from the same end and tend to cover the same water with multiple buoys.
I usually set one on automatic and let it do it's thing.  I'll take control of one or more others and use them to fill in for the one on "auto" so as to cover more water.  If I have an aircraft with lots of buoys then that's the one I control, and will often lay a barrier between the sub and any assets I have that I don't want sunk!  Even if I don't catch it that way, I am fairly sure it's not creeping up on my ship(s).
Active sonar seems to be a big blow horn saying "torpedo me!" - torpedo range is greater than active sonar range, and it's a huge "here I am" to any subarine including old whiskeys or foxtrots.  I have had some luck taking these out with active sonar at shorter ranges - but I wouldn't try it with anything more modern.
The days of pinging the sub and running over it with depth charges almost ended in WW2 with the German acoustic torpedoes, they are certainly over now!
(.) (.)

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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

About going active ... I wonder if going active when under torpedo attack is counter productive ... effectively allows the AI to track and reattack better? Since the game pretty much forces you to go active when get a TIW. However, unlike missiles, you do not really have guided counter measures to fire against torpedoes which are aided by turning on your radar for detection, targetting, and guidance.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by CV32 »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
About going active ... I wonder if going active when under torpedo attack is counter productive ... effectively allows the AI to track and reattack better? Since the game pretty much forces you to go active when get a TIW. However, unlike missiles, you do not really have guided counter measures to fire against torpedoes which are aided by turning on your radar for detection, targetting, and guidance.

I think in many cases, it probably is counter-productive. One exception might be when your opponent is close by, but you don't have a good fix on him. Note my comments from an earlier post:
I hardly ever use a surface ship's active sonar. Usually only when the contact is very close, I've already been shot at, and I'm attempting to counter-attack.

When you're already under attack, but don't have a good fix on the opposing submarine, you might not have much to lose by energizing the active sonar at close ranges. You can't hang around to try and get a passive fix, and he obviously already has a good idea of where you are. Hammer him with active sonar, and return fire!
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

But how can you avoid going active when the game keeps nagging you to go active? Is there a trick to remove the nag?

Thanks.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

Well, I see two things which I have been doing wrong in my current scenario:

(1) I assumed that I had dipping sonar, but I didn't. I now know where to look for the little D.

(2) I was not effectively using my sonobuoys when controling manually.

How can I tell if an ASW helo is equipped with MAD?

Also, I've looked at the OHP FFG, but haven't been able to see graphically it using its towed array. Is that implemented?

Thanks.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by Stalintc »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Well, I see two things which I have been doing wrong in my current scenario:

(1) I assumed that I had dipping sonar, but I didn't. I now know where to look for the little D.

(2) I was not effectively using my sonobuoys when controling manually.

How can I tell if an ASW helo is equipped with MAD?

Also, I've looked at the OHP FFG, but haven't been able to see graphically it using its towed array. Is that implemented?

Thanks.

Hey Mark,

With regards to telling if a helo has MAD capability, AFAIK that can only be read from the platform description, if it has it then it should be written there somewhere, sorry man.

Okay on the point of the towed array, if you are travelling at the correct speed nice and slow 5- 10 knots and there is no manuvering going on in the formation, you should eventually see the towed array deploy in the unit window which is quite simply a minute line graphic pertruding away from the ships path of motion. It may take time for the ship to deploy the towed array since it has to be reeled out and reeled in each time.

One thing to make sure of with the towed arrays is to go into staff options and check that the "show active towed arrays" checkbox is ticked, otherwise you will not see them deployed.

Hopefully thats answers the question :)

And with regards to the naggy staff officer, we all hate him at times for his nagging ways, and there is no way around him at this time :(

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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

Yes, I now see the line at for TA (very small at 1600x1200).

Here is something very strange. Why do the range circles for unit best active sonar show larger radius than best passive sonar? I assume that is representing the range at which BB noise can be heard versus pinging a hull as opposed to an active intercept made via passive equipment?
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

The sonobuoy square is that just to show you have laid down a buoy or does the square represent the effective range of the buoy?

So for example, when laying them down:

(1) Should they be overlapping by 50%?

(2) Should they be adjacent edges?

I assume some statistically analysis would yield the mathematically best deployment practice for them? (Where is SeaQueen when you need her?)

So, if you are trying to resolve a sub in an area uncertainty should drop outside in or inside out?

Also, when the AI drops them as part of a formation why is its dropping so messy?

Thanks.
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by Stalintc »

1600x1200 yeah I bet it is very tiny hehehe, I find a better way to tell is when the convergance zone range rings start appearing from a ship with a towed array, usually if the ship can dig into those CZ then the towed array is out.

On the point of the active sonar, the maximum range for the best active is about right, since such a strong specific pulse of sound is sent through the water that the active sensor is listening specifically for a return from that pulse, making it much more powerful tool for detecting underwater contacts at longer range. However the range difference in *most* cases isnt that staggering with ASW configured vessels since the passive sensors are usually alot better than standard vessels.

However dont forget the a good passive sonar set is actually much better range wise when looking in the unit window especially if the towed array is out and the sea acoustics are favourable, you will be able to see far out into convergance zones, however as you can guess these are far less accurate in return data.

I hope im making sense somewhat hehe :)
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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by Stalintc »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

The sonobuoy square is that just to show you have laid down a buoy or does the square represent the effective range of the buoy?

So for example, when laying them down:

(1) Should they be overlapping by 50%?

(2) Should they be adjacent edges?

I assume some statistically analysis would yield the mathematically best deployment practice for them? (Where is SeaQueen when you need her?)

So, if you are trying to resolve a sub in an area uncertainty should drop outside in or inside out?

Also, when the AI drops them as part of a formation why is its dropping so messy?

Thanks.

Hi again,

The sonbuoy sqaure represents the detection area for its passive and active sonar suites.

1) no need to overlap them although it wont hurt

2) edge to edge will provide you with a perfect barrier, any gaps can *possibly* allow a sub to slip through, however he would have to be travelling on an exact path to make it through un-noticed

With regards to area of un-certainty, you want to drop outside of it first of all and attempt to block any exit, take into account, and decide for yourself based on the situation using the following considerations:

- How many sonobuoys do I have? (what area can I cover, forces you to pick a possible direction of travel if you havent got many on your helo\plane)
- sonobuoys last for an hour
- in order for me to cover the possible areas of travel where should I start placing to stop the ambigous area growing outside my barrier before I seal it?

Then once you are happy with the sealing off, work your way slowly into the area of un-certainty with dipping sonar and arranged sonobuoy drops as you see fit. This will increase your chance of contact. Dont worry if he gets away, subs do that :) just keep hunting and you will find him!

AI sonobuoy drops are not fantastic its true, AFAIK no proper sonobuoy pattern has been coded into the ASW helicopter AI so it is more at random within the patrol area you set. But still even with the messy and random pattern it is still very likely that you will pick up a contact, provided you dont make the ASW helicopters patrol an area in the formation grid which is far too large.

I hope this is of some use :)

Cheers


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RE: Conducting ASW ops?

Post by MarkShot »

So, how to arrive at the optimal use of ASW resources?

I have four per group. If I have four patrol, then I have maximum change of finding a sub, but then I forfeit a guaranteed first response. Would it be better to have two working the formation and two on alert read to hunt down a sub which has been detected?

Also, once I have that contact should I allocate everything to working the contact or should continue to cover the formation with the pre-assigned helos?

If you go bingo without an exact contact is it better to just drop your fish and hope for a hit or are you encouraging the sub to run when it would rather creep and therefore increase the rate of growth of the area of uncertainty?

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Thanks a lot for all the help. I have heard it said that this scenario is really tough, but I tend to think it is just ignorance on my part. I think once I have the best techniques down I will have steady and repeatable results.

---

I also play SC/DW. I am at the point where I would like to get into my own SC/DW scenario design. This Harpoon stuff (HCCE/H363) is really great! It is giving me lots of good ideas for SC/DW scenarios.
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