Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Adanac's Strategic level World War I grand campaign game designed by Frank Hunter

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SMK-at-work
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Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

I've noticed that level 3 entrenchements come about very quickly - usually by the middle of 1915 for the TE, a bit later for the CP.

Artillery lags this by quite a lot - I normally spend as much on arty as entrenching, but arty normally lags by at least 1 and often 2 levels.

I'm wondering if entrenchement research is jsut a bit too fast?
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hjaco
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

Yes.

Normally you get level 4 entrenchment as well in 1915.
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Joel Rauber
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by Joel Rauber »

Or is artillery too slow?

OTOH, I assume you are implying that you are researching trenches every turn; perhaps if that is where you are spending resources its not too fast.

IMO, I haven't felt it has been too fast; but now that you mention it . . .
maybe it is bit too fast.
Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

This is Lava's research matrix.....as you can see trenches are a lot easier to research than arty, so you get advanced trenches long before you get advanced arty.

(for those not au fait with research, each research point you spend in the game gives you 1-3 (I think) points on this table - you get the advanced levels when your cumulative research reaches the value listed for the area and level)

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hjaco
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

Actually the result spread is 0 to 3 given an average of about 1.5 and with 9 RP to go for trenches this fits very well with our experience of 1 year to get to entrenchment level 4.

Point is this system was developed at a time where artillery were more lethal so I think the cost to reach a higher entrenchment level should be increased a little bit.
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esteban
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by esteban »

I'd argue that the entrenchment level rise vs. artillery is just fine for a historical simulation of WW1. The game should have that "stalemate" period from 1915-1917 and that would be harder to replicate if artillery upgraded faster. Also, artillery historically didn't "upgrade" as fast as trenches did.

Also, as it is you can still capture heavily entrenched hexes in the game much more easily than you could in the real war.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by wurger54 »

ORIGINAL: esteban

I'd argue that the entrenchment level rise vs. artillery is just fine for a historical simulation of WW1. The game should have that "stalemate" period from 1915-1917 and that would be harder to replicate if artillery upgraded faster. Also, artillery historically didn't "upgrade" as fast as trenches did.

Also, as it is you can still capture heavily entrenched hexes in the game much more easily than you could in the real war.


I agree, the west is still more mobile than historical, although not very. Submit trench research is OK.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

You get the stalemate when trenches hit level 2 and arty is at level 1 still.....when trenches get to level 4 in 1915 and arty is at level 1 you don't even bother shooting any more, which is not what happened at all.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

Besides there were a reason they bothered to go to level 4 which were mainly to achieve better protection against barrages. Sure on the lower levels it was also targeted against enemy infantry.

Point is where in the game is the reasoning behind going all the wy to level 4 when there is absolutely no chance of getting to next level of artillery research in the same time ?

Our argument is not that research time for artillery should be lowered but that research for especially higher level entrenchments should be a little bit increased.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by FrankHunter »

It was a case of choosing the easiest path.  Originally I wanted to allow an increase in trench technology only if you were being hit by a higher artillery technology.  This meant that on the eastern front the trench levels would tend to be lower because the Austrian and Russian artillery lags behind that on the western front. 

However, should the Brits in Salonika be able to build level 4 trenches because the Germans hit them with level 6 artillery on the western front? 

I decided there too many "issues" with that rule (and others like it) and opted instead to simply let players build what they wanted as fast as they could increase their tech levels in an effort to keep the game from getting too confusing.

Besides, as esteban points out, historically the Germans built a trench system superior to Entente artillery, at least for a time, so I think at the end of the day it still feels about right.

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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

Yes hte Brits at Salonika shuold be able to build better trenches because of the experience of the Western Front - the practices were known army wide, and all those divisions came from the western front.
 
I think there's been a subtle shift in the balance between trenches and arty tho - being able to build trenches every phase means they become moer powerful much more quickly.  also artillery has been toned down a bit.
 
So overall Trenches are way ahead of artillery.
 
I certainly dont' mind them being ahead, but I think they are too far ahead when the difference is enough to stop the artillery from shooting at all.
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esteban
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by esteban »

SMK:
 
Yes, basically once trenches get to level 2-3, you shouldn't bother shooting at them to generate casualties.  To knock down readiness/trench levels in advance of an attack, yes, but not to generate casalties. 
 
However, the supply rules within the game are such that you can take level 3 and 4 entrenched hexes with a direct assault if you attack at a time or place where supplies are low.  I've lost 6 hexes of Western Germany so far in my "Russia first" game I am playing now, plus all the Austrian mountain/rough hexes near the Italian border and Trent.  Almost all of these were entrenched to at least level 3 and heavily defended when I lost them. 
 
If we bump up artillery more or increase the research costs of trenches it will only increase this rather ahistorical level of "mobility". 
 
 
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

At level 2-3 you won't be KO'ing any of the trenches with level 1 guns either.
 
Your supply examples make no sense - CP supply is 100% in all those areas and you can't possibly have had entrenchement 3 on the German/French frontier (except Metz & Strasbourg) because you don't get any entrenchements on the 1st 2 strat turns, and after that you get a big wadge of reinforcements so the crisis is over.
 
I too lost 6-7 hexes of Western Germany to France with a "Russia First" strategy - to Mainz and in the south where they were unentrenched - I have no idea why that is relevant to artillery vs entrenchements tho. 
 
I cut off the 6 French Corps at Mainz and forced their surrender.[8D]
 
Losing the Austrian alps is just careless - [:D] - you should be ready for the Italian declaration of war and smash their initial positions with ease.  I did so in the same game as above - after 1 year of war the Italians are already "wavering"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Losing the Austrian alps is just careless - [:D] - you should be ready for the Italian declaration of war and smash their initial positions with ease. I did so in the same game as above - after 1 year of war the Italians are already "wavering"

Right, but the Entente should also have a plan right from the beginning of how to stop this onslaught - which requires detailed and careful planning but its quite possible.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

Well you can't stop the 1st attacks because tgey occur before any other TE troops can get there via strat movement...but certainly the 2nd line should be ready and waiting - Venice is still ahrd to hold since it can get a little surrounded, but with a bit of effort a line from there to teh Alps shuold be fairly secure while the Italians recover!
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by boogada »

ORIGINAL: hjaco
Right, but the Entente should also have a plan right from the beginning of how to stop this onslaught - which requires detailed and careful planning and executable strat moves but its quite possible.

fixed.

[:D] [;)]
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Well you can't stop the 1st attacks because tgey occur before any other TE troops can get there via strat movement...but certainly the 2nd line should be ready and waiting - Venice is still ahrd to hold since it can get a little surrounded, but with a bit of effort a line from there to teh Alps shuold be fairly secure while the Italians recover!

Yeah but you can certainly activate your vulnerable front line units and get to safety in the nearby mountains before the hordes swarms down from the alps. Moving from a clear hex gives you a huge advantage in getting to safety compared to beginning in a mountain hex (50 % penalty initiative). Beefed up by some elite British/French corps in the second line with fast digging spades and defending in mountains and flanked by fortifications which need to be reduced is quite a challenge to penetrate I can assure you [8D]
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by hjaco »

ORIGINAL: boogada

ORIGINAL: hjaco
Right, but the Entente should also have a plan right from the beginning of how to stop this onslaught - which requires detailed and careful planning and executable strat moves but its quite possible.

fixed.

[:D] [;)]

Only happy to be of assistance [:D]
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by esteban »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

At level 2-3 you won't be KO'ing any of the trenches with level 1 guns either.

Your supply examples make no sense - CP supply is 100% in all those areas and you can't possibly have had entrenchement 3 on the German/French frontier (except Metz & Strasbourg) because you don't get any entrenchements on the 1st 2 strat turns, and after that you get a big wadge of reinforcements so the crisis is over.

I too lost 6-7 hexes of Western Germany to France with a "Russia First" strategy - to Mainz and in the south where they were unentrenched - I have no idea why that is relevant to artillery vs entrenchements tho. 

I cut off the 6 French Corps at Mainz and forced their surrender.[8D]

Losing the Austrian alps is just careless - [:D] - you should be ready for the Italian declaration of war and smash their initial positions with ease.  I did so in the same game as above - after 1 year of war the Italians are already "wavering"

You are making this kind of personal with your accusations that what I am saying "doesn't make sense" and is an example of me being "careless" aren't you?

The fact is that you were not in the game and you therefore don't know what you are talking about. I lost all the hexes adjacent to Trent (and Trent itself) and the rough terrain hex 2 hexes "southeast" of Trent and 6 hexes south across the border from Belmont due to repeated attacks that drove out now low readiness units, but mostly due to supply issues. My supply levels in those Mountain hexes in Austra were down around 10%, with Trent at about 25%. My opponent can confirm that with the exception of a couple hexes between Trent and Switzerland that I withdrew from after Trent fell (it fell in one impulse of combat btw, even with 2 corps in the hex and 3 entrechments after the fort was destroyed) all these hexes were taken with at least level 3 entrenchments (often level 4) and often with 3 corps defending the hex.

I even counterattacked and retook one mountain hex "northeast" of Trent and was promptly driven out of it a couple impulses later despite the mountains 2 defending corps and level 2 entrenchments.

All this ground was taken in 1915 and 1916--AFTER my opponents initial attacks in 1914 had gone nowhere and AFTER I had dug level 3 and 4 entrenchments with 2-3 corps per hex along the length of the Italian/Austrian border.

Now maybe supply is not working that way in your game, but in my game it is. In my game you can't maintain control of a mountain hex "or a city hex surrounded by mountains like Trent" while the attacker is in good supply on the plains below. Likewise my supply in Western Germany is varying between 95% in a clear hex on some impulses, but 40% or so on other impulses. I don't understand it, but it does affect my ability to hold the hexes.

So, in short, yes you can take well defended highly entrenched hexes in the game before tanks and assault troops ever get in the game. And yes, that has quite a bit to do with my opposition to making trenches harder to upgrade or artillery easier to upgrade.
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RE: Is entrenchement too easy to research?

Post by SMK-at-work »

Esteban there's a smiley there - it's a joke - that's what smilies are for - it is a play on words "I just lost the Asutrian Alps"...."Oh - where weer they when you last saw them then?" I'm sorry you didn't take it that way [:(]

As for "doesn't make sense" well I'm afraid it doesn't - the CP has 100% supply in those hexes, so your description of losing them due to lowsupply doesn't make any sense to me - how can you have low supply in 100% supply hexes??  how can you have 40% supply in any German hexes as the CP? they are all 100% supply.

I'm not questioning your results - but I don't understand what happened, so "it doesn't make sense" is a statement that I don't understand what happened.

Certainly it is possible to be driven from the Alps - the TE can mass more artillery on the plains for the attack than you can for het defence.

Abandoning the first line of Alpine hexes may well be a good strategy if yuo havent' been able to seriously hurt the Italians - TE supply in the alpine hexes is really, really bad - some of them by hte Swiss border have less than 10% which means they lose readiness even if they do nothing!
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