Great Game concept but just far too flawed to be playable

[YohanTM2]

First, great concept, kinda reminds me of that game High Commander of many years ago, looks wonderful, mechanics are easy, production makes sense but totally unplayable.

Let’s start with:

1. Weather – only weather is the occasional severe winter in Russia and often very late. No mud – ever. Send those panzers into Benelux in winter ’39, big whoop, they are all on freeways apparently. Not sure there were too many autobahns through the Ardennes in ’39-’40 but I may be wrong, those Beetles Hitler rolled off the lines were quick.

2. Political – speaking of Benelux in 1939, any issues for the rest of the world? Nope, have at them we don’t care. Want to take out Vichy the turn after you get Paris? No worries and extra production to boot. Spain? Why not, US and Soviets are not alarmed in the slightest.

Take out Gibraltar? Cairo? Suez? Yawn, we don’t care. Grab all that oil in Persia (named Iran in 39?) and Iraq? Those silly Europeans, wish they would solve their issues over there.

3. Barbarossa – starting to remind me of Third Reich, here is the perfect move for each stage of the attack, because guess what, the frickin’ Russians are locked in their starting positions so play the AI a few times and you have the attack locked and loaded, no variables and massive amounts of Russians are butter for your toast. Don’t believe me? Play Irish Dragoon Guards; he has it already down to a science.

4. Entrenchments – Again big whoop, Fighters even knock them down.

5. Tech – bastion of hope for Russia? Not on this watch, Artillery only helps Motorized shock value and attack (and Germany and Russia both start at the same level somehow – zero). Fixed defenses don’t up ground defense until Level 2 (read as after Moscow is long gone Spanky)

6. PBEM – don’t even get me started, almost – no a complete joke that they market this as a PBEM game. Very interesting that Matrix in another thread defends that they should receive kudos as they playtest as well as distribute. Well someone sure missed the boat here, and as a former playtester for their Gary Grigsby's World at War I know it is not the playtesters. I have never seen a more pathetic PBEM structure.
• Saves – nope can’t even save as name of your choice
• Password protect – umm no, open my turn its OK. So much for FOW, just open after you send and all those enemy troops are there for you – all knowing one.
• Replay? – no again, gee why are my convoys being hit? Did air attack my troops? What were the odds that he was able to whack me like that? WHO SUNK MY BATTLESHIP?
• Save counts – speaking of no idea how he did that, did he open the game 103 times to get the exact right attack? No idea, very quick and easy to reopen a turn.
• Dice rolls – lots of discussion and ways to introduce a fairly easily tracked Internet die roll – not here – see above

7. Summary – Lots of anticipation for something that could provide a great fun game aka SC (not SC2, it blew chunks) with lots of fun and replayability. So much to fix I just wonder how both Slitherine and Matrix were sold down the river by the developer.

[Major Victory]

Can't argue with on your points Yohan, one can only hope someone is listening and addresses these issues pronto, if not, the playablity factor will be very limited for those of us who just want a long well played campaign.

My lasted opposition took out Holland in Oct-Nov 39! and coasted from there. Its know sep 40 and Spain will fall shortly. God help Russia in 1941.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

Can't argue with on your points Yohan, one can only hope someone is listening and addresses these issues pronto, if not, the playablity factor will be very limited for those of us who just want a long well played campaign.

My lasted opposition took out Holland in Oct-Nov 39! and coasted from there. Its know sep 40 and Spain will fall shortly. God help Russia in 1941.

I can argue with those points. For example: PBEM. You can just change the name in windows. What's the big deal? If grognards are the ones who supposedly don't like this game, why all the petty technical complaints? I've played war games since the 1960s and this is a perfectly good game.

[targul]

ORIGINAL: MengCiao

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

Can't argue with on your points Yohan, one can only hope someone is listening and addresses these issues pronto, if not, the playablity factor will be very limited for those of us who just want a long well played campaign.

My lasted opposition took out Holland in Oct-Nov 39! and coasted from there. Its know sep 40 and Spain will fall shortly. God help Russia in 1941.

I can argue with those points. For example: PBEM. You can just change the name in windows. What's the big deal? If grognards are the ones who supposedly don't like this game, why all the petty technical complaints? I've played war games since the 1960s and this is a perfectly good game.

Just because you are pretty new to wargames 1960 I was already getting ready for real wars, does not make you knowledgeable. The flaws in this game are not only technical althougth the technical one are the most glaring they are also historical. This game is so historically inaccurate it boarders on unplayable. Well I shouldnt say broaders on if you are an Allied player it is unplayable.

They removed Axis units to make the game more balanced this is simply not acceptable. I find that to be nothing less then cheating. Worst though is they only balanced the game for the Axis since they lost. Game is biased toward the Axis.

I have asked and asked for one person to say I have won verses a real human playing the Allies. So far not one person has said they won. Please guys I know it is fun tp push panzers but let the Allies at least have some chance of winning.

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: targul

ORIGINAL: MengCiao

ORIGINAL: Major Victory

Can't argue with on your points Yohan, one can only hope someone is listening and addresses these issues pronto, if not, the playablity factor will be very limited for those of us who just want a long well played campaign.

My lasted opposition took out Holland in Oct-Nov 39! and coasted from there. Its know sep 40 and Spain will fall shortly. God help Russia in 1941.

I can argue with those points. For example: PBEM. You can just change the name in windows. What's the big deal? If grognards are the ones who supposedly don't like this game, why all the petty technical complaints? I've played war games since the 1960s and this is a perfectly good game.

Just because you are pretty new to wargames 1960 I was already getting ready for real wars, does not make you knowledgeable. The flaws in this game are not only technical althougth the technical one are the most glaring they are also historical. This game is so historically inaccurate it boarders on unplayable. Well I shouldnt say broaders on if you are an Allied player it is unplayable.

They removed Axis units to make the game more balanced this is simply not acceptable. I find that to be nothing less then cheating. Worst though is they only balanced the game for the Axis since they lost. Game is biased toward the Axis.

I have asked and asked for one person to say I have won verses a real human playing the Allies. So far not one person has said they won. Please guys I know it is fun tp push panzers but let the Allies at least have some chance of winning.

Half finished tcpip games but one of them going good for allies the other one too early to tell.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3753
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3755

[YohanTM2]

Nobody in the know seems to want to answer my issues. Herer is another. I invade Portugal (good luck winning I'm playing Allied) and not only was Axis able to rail a unit adjacent but my guys on the coast are completely out of supply.



Any ideas from the designers on how to make an invasion work?

[Vypuero]

Yohan - if perhaps you took 2 seconds to read the rules you would see that when you invade (and don't have a city) just place a naval unit (CV, BB or DD) adjacent to the land and you will get sea supply (it is low, but there you have it).
 
As to your initial comments:
 
Weather - It is abstracted for now with combined mud/snow effects.  It would be nice to increase the complexity, but it is certainly not that big a deal.
Political - No diplomacy, but I don't think a good allied player will sit and let all that happen.  If you play the AI, the normal setting is too easy for a good player, you have to notch up the difficulty level and then it is a challenge.
Barbarossa - The start is not the key anyway - of course you will blow through the border.  It is after that that it all starts to matter a lot.
Fighters represent a LOT of AC, are expensive, and also model some bombers and fighter-bombers mixed in.
Tech is designed to allow as much flexibility as possible for the players.  You can eventually start to catch up, or if you can't hack it as allies vs. ai adjust your difficulty level.  It can also be modded pretty easily in the future.  The shock values are designed to make the motor units better first, as any change is very powerful when you go fro 4 to 5 you just went up 25% in combat value, so you cannot have large increases every tech level.
PBEM will be upgraded in the next patch - BUT this is one of the few games with excellent and stable TCP/IP - which is much better anyway.  PBEM is a tad too slow at this scale.  The live games are more fun.
 
Just wait for a bit and try it out longer before you are so quick to judge.

[targul]

Yohan - if perhaps you took 2 seconds to read the rules you would see that when you invade (and don't have a city) just place a naval unit (CV, BB or DD) adjacent to the land and you will get sea supply (it is low, but there you have it).
 
If they would actually send the rules I paid for I would certainly be happy.  Backordered from day one is silly.  They dont even tell you they backordered until you complain two weeks later you dont have them.  Dont tell me to download them that has been tried many times and simply doesnt work for this game on my machine.  Works for all other games just not this one.  And why should I have to print them when I paid for them to print them anyway.

[targul]

BUT this is one of the few games with excellent and stable TCP/IP - which is much better anyway.  PBEM is a tad too slow at this scale.
 
Glad to hear this game has an IP since the 3 players that I have tried to play with using it cannot figure out how to make it work.  We all finally gave up and play using Hamachi.   IP in the game dropped you constantly if you could log on at all.  Look at the two Daves problems.  Also me and For45 and Scum (SP) have not been able to make it work.  Nope this IP sucks but we have found Hamachi is solid and works well.

[IainMcNeil]

You should have a pdf of the manual on your PC until the printed version arrives?

[targul]

Very funny, that pdf version which I spent many hours trying to download for some reason does not do anything.  I have the software to run it but for this particualar game you hit the key and nothing happens as if the file is simply not there.  One day I spent two hours trying to download it even though I really dont want to print once more something I already paid for.
 
I assume that file is in the same place as my playback for the PBEM games.  Doesnt exist at this time.  File was probably corrupted in download I dont know but it does not open.  So it is not printable.  If I ever receive my disk and rules book I will reload the game and I betcha the pdf version of the book will suddently appear.
 
BTW this is not the first time I have responded to you can do a pdf version but the third on different threads.

[IrishGuards]

Nay need rules ... Just pointy units .. !!
I will tell ya the rules as we go .. [8|]
Maybe a wee bit of knowledge and some balls .. [X(]
I will take Allies against you in PBEM Targul .. [8D]
IDG

[Ancient One]

ORIGINAL: targul

Very funny, that pdf version which I spent many hours trying to download for some reason does not do anything.  I have the software to run it but for this particualar game you hit the key and nothing happens as if the file is simply not there.  One day I spent two hours trying to download it even though I really dont want to print once more something I already paid for.

I assume that file is in the same place as my playback for the PBEM games.  Doesnt exist at this time.  File was probably corrupted in download I dont know but it does not open.  So it is not printable.  If I ever receive my disk and rules book I will reload the game and I betcha the pdf version of the book will suddently appear.

BTW this is not the first time I have responded to you can do a pdf version but the third on different threads.

Try getting into it through the start menu.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: targul

Very funny, that pdf version which I spent many hours trying to download for some reason does not do anything. I have the software to run it but for this particualar game you hit the key and nothing happens as if the file is simply not there. One day I spent two hours trying to download it even though I really dont want to print once more something I already paid for.

I assume that file is in the same place as my playback for the PBEM games. Doesnt exist at this time. File was probably corrupted in download I dont know but it does not open. So it is not printable. If I ever receive my disk and rules book I will reload the game and I betcha the pdf version of the book will suddently appear.

BTW this is not the first time I have responded to you can do a pdf version but the third on different threads.

I don't know mate, I can read the PDF files from the start menu or from the folder in the game folder ?

are you sure your reader is pointing to the right place ?

(I just opened it up from the game menu to be sure it works)

[Howard7x]

Runs just fine for me and i have the digital download. Cant you just go straight to the file rather than going through the game menu? If that doesnt work, then im afraid you have a problem with adobe as its just a .pdf file and should (does) open the same as any other.

[freeboy]

If you dig into the folders on your hd you will find the manual.. seems that should be the easiest to solve of all rants here

[IrishGuards]

Well what do you expect Yohan .. Allies DoW and Invade Lisbon ... Its not like you could pick a harder port/city with troops or what ...???? [X(]
Way back to Nappy .. Iberian ..
Axis Conquered Spain 40 .. No Gib
Supply .. I think Major Vic is right though ..
Trns running around and .. well there a gar there .. ok .. I will go here and invade then ..

UK lands .. or US .. they have designated landing zones or sights .. [:)]
I just landed Algerians from Vichy I guess .. into Italy .. I am pretty sure you think hes 1 of yours ..
How many trns you have landing in the Med 12 - 15 ??
IDG

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: targul
I have asked and asked for one person to say I have won verses a real human playing the Allies. So far not one person has said they won.

Oil?


Where was oil in all this?

-

[IrishGuards]

Yep ... Oil .. FoW .. End 45 on ..
Spain 40 .. Inf and Manstein .. with some Italian invasions in Spain ..
Russia will fall 3 turns max ... Perm that is ..
Italy is being invaded but my prod is 150 or so for Ger alone .. Italy is full of troops ..
Left Manstein and Guderian to continue the assault in Russia ,, Strat Rommel to Italy ..
IDG

[YohanTM2]

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Yohan - if perhaps you took 2 seconds to read the rules you would see that when you invade (and don't have a city) just place a naval unit (CV, BB or DD) adjacent to the land and you will get sea supply (it is low, but there you have it).

>> Does not happen, even with naval adjacent they are out of supply

As to your initial comments:

Weather - It is abstracted for now with combined mud/snow effects.  It would be nice to increase the complexity, but it is certainly not that big a deal.

>> perhaps for you, have you played a human player? This might be a bit simplistic for you but as Allies you can't invade against a decent Axis player.


Political - No diplomacy, but I don't think a good allied player will sit and let all that happen. 

>> What will the Allied player do per chance? Invade Benlux first? Smooth move Exlax

If you play the AI, the normal setting is too easy for a good player, you have to notch up the difficulty level and then it is a challenge.

>> I never play the AO (not AI) it can't play

Barbarossa - The start is not the key anyway - of course you will blow through the border.  It is after that that it all starts to matter a lot.

>>Happy to play you anytime. You be Allies, I'll have fun

Fighters represent a LOT of AC, are expensive, and also model some bombers and fighter-bombers mixed in.
Tech is designed to allow as much flexibility as possible for the players.  You can eventually start to catch up, or if you can't hack it as allies vs. ai adjust your difficulty level.  It can also be modded pretty easily in the future.  The shock values are designed to make the motor units better first, as any change is very powerful when you go fro 4 to 5 you just went up 25% in combat value, so you cannot have large increases every tech level.

>>Again, who plays the AI anyway

PBEM will be upgraded in the next patch - BUT this is one of the few games with excellent and stable TCP/IP - which is much better anyway.  PBEM is a tad too slow at this scale.  The live games are more fun.

>> Who has time

Just wait for a bit and try it out longer before you are so quick to judge.

>>I think that each of my issues is valid. If you noted my starting comments I think the game could be awesome but has too many critical issues and was very obviously rushed to market. As a playtester of other games I can tell you a solid playtest group would have been up in arms over most of these issues.