Frustrated with Jap Forces

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mac5732
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Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by mac5732 »

I've been holding off posting this frustration with what appears to be a degradation of Jap forces with each new patch. However, after playing several more games both in MP and Sp. I decided to put forth my observations of how it appears that the Japenese forces, especially the airforce has become weaker after each new patch and the allies stronger. I know there will be those who disagree with this but so be it. I've played the jap player more then the allied and in addition a number of players I've played against have also made the same observations. In 1942 the Jap zero was considered the best fighter in the Pacific, however, with the patches this has not been the case. The allies are shooting them down in some case over 2-1 with bufflos, demons, and the most profound and ludericrus chinese airforce who's morale and experience are in the low 40's. cases in point

1. Chinese ftrs are way to strong against Jap Fighters especailly the zeros. This is as unrealistic as it gets. It just didn't happen that way.

2. Allied bombers are way to strong in 1942. The defensive box wasn't even used at that time. case in point 51 zeros attack 24 un-escorted allied bombers.. result... 13 zeros shot down, 2 bombers damaged ???? . 34 zeros attacks 12 un-escorted allied bombers,, results... 9 zeros shot down. 1 bomber destroyed, 5 damaged...

3. 14 chinese ftrs defend against 30 zeros and 10 oscars.. results
8 zeros and 4 oscars destroyed, 2 chinese ftrs destroyed, 3 damaged?? This is definitly unrealistic.

4. 119 Vals, 60 Kates, get thru allied air cover over allied carrier fleet. these are the top of the line pilots etc of the main jap carrier fleet, result.. 1 British Carrier sunk by 4 torps and 2 bomb hits, l US carrier damaged by 2 torps and 3 bomb hits.. 1 Ca damaged by bomb hits AND thats it... no other allied ship attacked or hit including the other carriers in that fleet.. This fleet should have definitly taken some big time punishment
in addition 49 Jap planes destroyed...

5. Night surface action. 2 Jap BBs, 2 CA, 1 CL, 3 DDs, against
3 allied CLs, 1 CA, 4 DDis, results... l jap cl and 2 DDs sunk, both BBs take heavy damage, CA dead in the water. Allied loses,
2 Cls light damage, 1 DD light damage. The Japenese owned night action in early 1942..

6. 120 zeros vs 10 Kittyhawks, 24 P40Es, results, 41 zeros shot down, 5 kittyhawks and 2 P40s shot down ??????

7. 7 top Jap Divisions, 4 mixed brigades, along with artillery, assault engineers and a number of other units,, total troops over 243,000 with 3 armor units. allies, 43,000, all dutch except for 7th australian Div....takes over 2 months to take them out. even tho Japs were well supplied, low fatigue, low disruption and allies were cut off and surrounded. The dutch in 1942 were definitly not that strong even with the 7th div. to hold out against that kind of power for that long plus being bomber every turn by 100-200 bombers

8. In one game, as of aug 1942, the japs have lost 3421 planes, allies, 1090. In another game as of Nov 1942, japs lost 3607 planes, allies 903 planes.. There are more instances, these are only 2

There are more instances that show unrealistic results however, I've just named a few. These are not only from me but from other players as well. It just seems that the Jap Forces have become weaker with each patch and the allies have become way to strong to the point, the play balance has been thrown out of kilter. Some of those I've played against, have decided to chalk up the game, others have gone back to v1.0 as even tho it has bugs, the game was more balanced. I would like to see the Jap forces back to normalcy in the next patch if at all possible. As it stands now, the game has become unbalanced and unplayable with the allied forces far stronger then they really were especially in 1942.

I don't mean to offend anyone who has played the game etc. I've just become very frustrated with the game as it now stands compared to the way it was when it first came out. I've played the game extensivly more Japenese then allied, maybe thats why I see the difference more then others, I don't know. I love the game as I've very fond of the battles and warfare in the pacific. I've been a war gamer for over 40 yrs as well has a military history buff. The game to me seems to have changed since it first came out with the Japenese forces becoming way to weak and the allies way to strong.
v 1.0 was a lot closer to the mark then the current game, even tho there were bugs and some balance problems. IMHO it seems that in trying to correct those, it went to far in the other direction.

I apoligize to anyone who I've offended with my observations and comments, I don't want to start any flamewars, just to post my frustration. I know some may defend the game as it is, and thats fine, everyone has the right to an opinion. I just ask to really analyze the differences in the original vs whats taken place with all the patches. I thank you all for putting up with my comments.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by jwilkerson »

Mac,

As far as I can tell from looking at your comments - which admitted isn't very far. There is nothing in the patches - since I've been on board anyway (March 06 .. patch 1.8.0.0 and beyond) which would affect any of your items.

I assume we're talking stock here.

I offer my current game with Moses (AAR in the AAR section of the forum) ... as of Mid-March, the Japanese have lost ~1700 planes, the Allies ~2300.

The Allies have lost 1 CV and had 2 knocked out for several months, with no hits on Japanese carriers.

Now Allied 4EB have always been very powerful in the game, not much you can do about them. In a game last year (discussion thread around) I was able to down 50-100 unescorted B17s in several different battles, by using massed Tony's. But once P-38s showed up, that type of party was over.

But I guess, the main point I want to make, is that no patches (since 1.6) have made any data changes to the units, nor have any code changes been made to affect combat routines (at least since I've been on board).

There are a whole lot of variables that can affect combat in the game.

The above being said, I would agree that the game has always been very tough for the Japanese to get the historical results with the historical forces, especially against a good/agressive Allied player, and my experience has really only been from the Japanese side.

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Charles2222
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by Charles2222 »

Just a few comments, for lack of anybody else responding so far. First of all you need to avoid the tendency to take out a bad case and make it as though it's the normal results you see, if that is going on. I'm a JFB so you're safe with me[;)].


Secondly, I find the overall aerial losses mystifying, and also the Zero situation you describe. I have to wonder if you or your opponents aren't by accident or on purpose doing everything that can be done to put the Zero in the worst situation possible every time out. I mean, if you put in nothing but new recruits, always flew them below where you knew the enemy was, always had them flying escort at extended range, or had them flying LRCAP at 8 hexes, as well as never resting them, with shortage of supplies, while doing no recon, would be about the only way you could achieve such shortfalls.

Now for my aside. I don't recall the thread, but more than a few people before have complained of IJ players quitting after losing KB and so forth, espcially after '43 and this somewhat ties into the problem you stated, but I just don't think it's as bad as you describe. Even if it is that bad I think it's only possible through very poor management, as doubtlessly those results in some cases can be achieved. Anyway, what I'm talking about is the issue of IJ players quitting. Not that I have done it mind you, but then I haven't played far enough into it either[:D], but if the IJ no longer has KB basically, that's pretty much his last hope. Ah, but that's absird, he still has his surface fleet and air force. Well, we know what pretty much happenes to the air force, and yes, I will agree the surface fleet is considerable, but the surface fleet has one major problem that negates it, that is, the 4E's being able to destroy them easily.

Ah, but you say, what about the kamikazes? True, IRL they were something to look forward to, but you probably couldn't win a fighting war like that, but still, something to look forward to. Problem is, from what I've seen on this board, their strike rate is excessively poor so that's out the window too. So what do they have left? A fairly decent army, one still inadequate for fighting so many enemies but nothing really worthy of continued play really. So, as you see, KB, or more specifically the IJN CV's are IJ's only shot "in this game" and of course even KB is susceptible to 4E's should the allies use 4E's that way.

Other than the random IJ player possibly cowarding out[:-], that's it.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by mac5732 »

JW, thanks for feed back and yes I'm talking stock,, I understand on the variables that can take place in different games which are understandable as you want variety, but I and those I've been playing with keep seeing the same kind of thing in regards to the Japenses side. So there were changes made up to 1.6??. I know i read quite awhile back on the forum, where changes were made to keep the Jap player from expanding so fast and that the allied bombers were made stronger because they were being shot down to often, at least if my feeble memory is correct :) I've also played the majority Japenese side and thats why I've seen changes. Even with the bonus in early 42, the allied planes are just to strong especially the chinese. Now when I played the game when it lst came out the chinese air counldn't hold beans against the zeros, now, it s like its the other way around.... It just looks like Something has changed as its happening in more then l game, and other games from other players. Also the Jap planes and forces were stronger against the allies in v1.0 compared to now, whether it was changes up to 1.6 that has made a difference, I can't say,
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by mac5732 »

Hi Charles,, np... I'm sorry to say to answer your questions, the Jap units were top notch, not put into bad situations, and were even the cream of the Jap airforce. Good morale, low fatigue, low disruption and so on. I've talked with other players and they all said the same thing, and yes, there were some bad situations, but those are not included. The examples I gave were from different games some of which are from other players. There are many more, but take to long to list :) The ground units were all in supply, good leaders, etc. another example... early 42, ( recent one) night action... Jap forces 2 BB's, 2 CA's 1 Cl, 6 DDs. Allies 3 Cls',7 DDs. Every Jap ship took heavy to serious damage, 5 DDs eventually sunk, allies, 1 DD sunk, 2 CLs light damage, 3 DDs light damage, the Japs took it in the ear and the allies didn't even have radar... I understand about the possibility of bad game play... however, not in most of the cases I'm refering to, The players I've played against are not novices and are quite good :) and yes if you have green pilots etc heavy losses are expected, however, not in these cases. The Jap pilots had high morale, experience etc. We (others and myself) have noticed a definite difference from v1.0 to current in regards to the Japenese side, and yes the allied 4e bombers do hit ships more then they should ;) the Kamikaze should be better when and if they hit as to damage then they do currently... Most of the complaints are related to 1942 and 1943 when the Japenese forces actually were able to hold at least somewhat their own against the allies, after that, they couldn't compete with the equipment the allies threw against them.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by pauk »


Hi Mac... I don't doubt in your words, but it seems a little wierd to me... i'm playing Japan too (exclusevly - sp?) and never had a problems which you've described...In fact i've managed to defeat Allied air forces quite easily....

First of all, i need more data to comment your case. Are your Zeros were on escort or sweep? (Sweep mission is much more efficient than escort)... Did you outnumbered your enemy (outnumbered side often losing more fighers)? did you have altitude advantage (also a positive thing in A2A combat)? Are your pilots trained, veterans or just greenhorns? Last but not the least - are your fighers fatigued? If Zeros are fatigued and opponent's pilots arent that will influence on results significantly...

You may take a look in my AAR (PDU on from early days to the late 1943) about A2A combat - i pay a lot attention to my Samurais and results are more than good for JFBs[;)]




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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by spence »

There is a bug with the Sweep Mission that will cause Zeros on Sweep(Primary), Naval Attack (Secondary) [or maybe the other way round] to come in at 2000 ft loaded with bombs and become very vulnerable to CAP of any sort (Nieuport 11s, observation balloons, birds with attitude even). 
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: spence

There is a bug with the Sweep Mission that will cause Zeros on Sweep(Primary), Naval Attack (Secondary) [or maybe the other way round] to come in at 2000 ft loaded with bombs and become very vulnerable to CAP of any sort (Nieuport 11s, observation balloons, birds with attitude even). 

Other way around - Naval Attack - Primary, Sweep - Secondary - Will ensure that planes with those settings are shot down by anything that can inflict damage.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by castor troy »

Mac,

After playing thousands [X(] (omg where did all my free time go?) of PBEM turns (mostly Japanese) and I don´t know how many turns against AI I have never seen what you describe...

While there are cases that "strange" results may happen if your posted results are the norm in your game then - I´m sorry - you must be doing something wrong because there´s nothing been in the patches that would make those early obsolete Allied fighters a competitive opponent for IJN Zeroes.

2. Allied bombers are way to strong in 1942. The defensive box wasn't even used at that time. case in point 51 zeros attack 24 un-escorted allied bombers.. result... 13 zeros shot down, 2 bombers damaged ???? . 34 zeros attacks 12 un-escorted allied bombers,, results... 9 zeros shot down. 1 bomber destroyed, 5 damaged...

never seen that... are you sure they were shot down? not destroyed on the ground perhaps?

3. 14 chinese ftrs defend against 30 zeros and 10 oscars.. results
8 zeros and 4 oscars destroyed, 2 chinese ftrs destroyed, 3 damaged?? This is definitly unrealistic.

again, never seen that... I´m achieving IN ALL MY GAMES 10-15:1 kill rates against everything the Chinese bring up in the air.

5. Night surface action. 2 Jap BBs, 2 CA, 1 CL, 3 DDs, against
3 allied CLs, 1 CA, 4 DDis, results... l jap cl and 2 DDs sunk, both BBs take heavy damage, CA dead in the water. Allied loses,
2 Cls light damage, 1 DD light damage. The Japenese owned night action in early 1942..

also, never seen that... how did that battle go? the only way the Cls can do damage to your BBs would be with torps. To do heavy damage they have to hit with 2,3 or even 4 torps. Both BBs where damaged heavily? [X(] How can that happen? [8|]

6. 120 zeros vs 10 Kittyhawks, 24 P40Es, results, 41 zeros shot down, 5 kittyhawks and 2 P40s shot down ??????

You are the only one I know of that gets such results... [8|]

8. In one game, as of aug 1942, the japs have lost 3421 planes, allies, 1090. In another game as of Nov 1942, japs lost 3607 planes, allies 903 planes.. There are more instances, these are only 2

also here, I don´t know how your games are going... [:(]


I´m not doubting your words but like I said before if those results are the norm in your game then something goes really wrong... but that has nothing to do with patches or the game in original version.

I´ll look up the intel screen of one of my PBEMs that has come to the latest date of my now going PBEMs to show you that not the Allied are too strong early on (OMG I´m saying that as a "mostly Japanese fanboy"!!!!![8|]) but the Japanese.

You are losing against P40 with kill rates of 7:1 against your favour and I´m achieving 2-3:1 kill rates against P38 in my favour...

So wonder what goes wrong...



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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by castor troy »

here is my intel screen:



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the date is mid October 43. As you can see points wise I´m in a real good shape. [8|] With your results I would have already lost by autovictory a year ago. In my case I won by autovictory, game is still going on.

Look at the planes lost and tell me how those numbers are possible at my game date, if some patch has boosted up the Allied forces.

The A2A kill rate is 2,5:1 in my favour but there are better planes around than Chinese biplanes or obsolete Dutch squadrons. A P40 is a joke against a Tojo or Tony, not to talk about Jack or George.... (in the game...).

So I can´t understand how your results - that seem the norm in your game - can happen... Sorry

I have to say this game isn´t one where both players were overly agressive but all but one of my games so far that entered 44 looked similar. It´s a PDU ON game that makes the Japanese even more dangerous than it already is.

The one that didn´t go like the ones described was one where I just wanted toooooo much. Knowing how GOOD my Jap forces are I tried to take the whole map at once in short time. Not possible as the Allied can strike back if you don´t focus on one (or perhaps two) targets after another.


And this is a game that started in 5/42 so a game going from 12/41 should be even worse for the Allied....
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by moses »

Well for sure there is nothing wrong with Jwilkersons zero's!!!!!!! I would be very exited at this point if I could find a way just to kill them at a 1-1 ratio. Every time I fight them I get decimated.[&:]
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: moses

Well for sure there is nothing wrong with Jwilkersons zero's!!!!!!! I would be very existed at this point if I could find a way just to kill them at a 1-1 ratio. Every time I fight them I get decimated.[&:]


I was also immediately thinking about your recent air battles over PM. The original poster even kills Zeroes with obsolete fighters and pilots at kill rates in his favour but you get completely mauled with the best you can field... [8|]
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by moses »

I did have better luck earlier on with small air battles. There were a couple times when single zero squadrens flew a long way against allied fighters and I would kill two or three zero's for little or no loss. I've also pulled off some air ambushes which have had good success.

But then that cowardly Jwilkerson would just attack somewhere else.[:@][:D] Or he comes back the next day with his whole air force.[X(]

He just doesn't play fair.[:D][:D][:D]
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by Brady »


Play a mod, the stock game does not do a realy good job of representing many faccets of the war.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by mac5732 »

I thank everyone for your answers and truthfully, I have no idea why I'm seeing these results, and in addition, My opponents are also seeing the same thing...If it was only l game, then I would say bad load or something on our end, but this is more then 3 games against 3 different opponents plus one game where i'm the allied player. 3 of the games are capaign Dec 7th, scenereo 15, the 4th game, is the may 1942 campaign. These are all MP games, no SP,.. There is aggressiveness in the games, as you can tell by the planes losses, but the majority have been air to air combat... Could it be a bad patch download somewhere along the line of patches that screwed something up, either on my end or my opponents?????? I wish I was getting some of those results you all have stated.. would be nice... But the Chinese airforce is just kicking butt unbelievable as it seems. I will check out some of the things mentioned and have my opponents do the same, In ref to the BBs damage, some were caused by torps at night by the allied ships.. this in early 1942?? Hopefully we'll find where the problems lye, so the game will not be so frstrating as the Jap player in 1942-43.
Once again I thank everyone for their help and suggestions..

I believe I discussed some of these with Mogami at Origins last year and he basically said the same thing that all of you are suggesting. I have not uninstalled and then a reinstall, maybe thats something I should consider and then just DL the current patch. That would eliminate all the separate patch downloads that I did as each one came out... I don't know if it could be a bad download but what the hay,, its worth a try I guess. But it'll have to wait until my pbem games are done or with approval of my opponents to restart, UGH....

Thank you everyone for your help and kind advice, I really appreciate it...
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by Cpt Sherwood »

If you just save any turns you need to somewhere else, you can uninstall and reinstall without a problem. At least it shouldn't cause any problems. If you and your opponents are patched to 1.804 then you can download the comprensive patch and reinstall to the same version. It is worth a try.
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by pasternakski »

I doubt that the solution lies in some faulty download. You and your opponents each have the game installed on your respective computers. Are they all the same version installed in the same sequence resulting in the same patch level?
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by goodboyladdie »

You could just not be very good at the game.....[:'(]

(Joking btw, though as I am playing an Iron Storm game which my opponent is using for an AAR, I could very soon be wishing I had not exposed myself to ridicule by the above comment!)

I have tried CHS, Big B, Mare Bellum and Iron Storm II mods and a lot of the issues you mention, such as over experienced/powerful Chinese fighters are dealt with in some of them. Iron Storm II is a JFB mod that gives the Jap player the chance to wreak havoc well into 1944 without being over aggressive. You may need a break from stock to recharge all your positive WitP energy. Playing the bad guy all the time is obviously very draining.....[:)]
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by mac5732 »

goodboyladdie :) could be ;) however, 1 of the games is more of a testing game as both of us agreed to try new ideas, tactics, etc. but the kill ratio is still higher for the japenese air and then there is the Navel night actions...
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RE: Frustrated with Jap Forces

Post by tsimmonds »

I do like some good navel night action....[;)]

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