Container Movement Rates

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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Great post, f15eagle, well said.
 
Eric, is there no chance that any consideration would be given to the idea that smaller forces are more nimble and better able to move longer distances than larger ones?
 
The Init rating of CO's would be a very good rating to base the chance of moving further than the average comparably sized unit, which would pose some very interesting command challenges. (do you want your best Init rated general with your big army facing down the opponents big army, or do you want him running a lightning campaign with a corps or division elsewhere)
 
Thanks for WCS's commitment to communication with the fans, I'm confident that FoF will continue to improve in dramatic fashion.
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Miserere
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Miserere »

There are already systems in place within the game that reduce the chance of a container making a successful march into a province (weather and time of year being a couple). What if this chance were further reduced proportional to the size of the container - larger containers have a reduced chance of completing the march? That would be an elegant, simple, and intuitive way of representing the relative slothfullness of large groups.
 
The only thing it doesn't do is address the obvious sidestep to that problem - breaking up the army into corps or even divisions prior to a march and ordering each separately to travel the same path. This would become a tedious but necessary excercise. So a further addition to the whole march routine would require some programming - the more containers that attempt to cross the same border in any given turn the more they interfere with each other's chance to actually carry out the maneuver. If it was actually more likely with a single container (e.g. the whole Army as a single container) than the same army broken up into individual containers, that would not only make sense (under a single command the movements can be better coordinated) but would be an incentive to keep units organized in as few containers as possible, which is good from a playability perspective.
 
On a related note, I know that commander Initiative influences the order in which containers march on the strategic map, but does it influence the *chance* of actually carrying out the march at all? It seems to me that most times my ordered marches are all carried out. You devs must have discussed the possibility of modeling a commander simply not carrying out an ordered march (McClellan's painful timidity in the Peninsular Campaign comes to mind, where it was very clear that Lincoln desperately wanted an offensive that McClellan simply was not willing to risk) - any thoughts on that? I know it's always risky to take control away from the player, as it can lead to excessive frustration, but the slothfullness of the Union campaign in the East seems to have been a major factor in the war.
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Misere, good points and a very interesting train of thought.

My understanding is that every move by every container is influenced by the Init rating of it's commander, or the Command Staff rating of the container itself.

With that in mind, let's consider the positive and negative effects of the command decisions of the proposed force-size/movement rate relationship.

1) What I propose is not that larger size units have a lesser chance to successfully execute any particular movement between provinces, but that the size of the container limit it's maximum 1-turn operational range. The Init/Command Staff ratings, plus the terrain/weather factors, already sufficiently affect this factor.

2) Someone correct me if I'm wrong (no rulebook with me), but doesn't the size of the container a unit is in affect it's supply? If not, it might be interesting to add a supply efficiency bonus to units within a army container (representing a larger staff and logistics operation), with a degradation of supply efficiency within corps containers, and a further hit to division containers. (your supply service is hard pressed to run all over creation supplying individual division staff, when they could much more easily deliver the bulk of supplies to a corps or army level logistics staff and let them worry about it)

3) The Init system is a very efficient way to model the tendency for seperate units marching towards the same destination to get out of sync with each other when operating under different command staffs, with the result being that if the player decided he absolutely must have his entire 3-corps army in a province that is 2 away from their origination province, he would be forced to break it up into corps units (assuming a 2 province max for corps-sized units). The consequence would be that he is trusting his corps commanders to get their units to the destination on their own, and is assuming the risk that one or more may fail an Init check on the way and not make it.

4) This setup {assuming a 1(army)-2(corps)-3(division) max province movement rate} would lead to operational possibilities like a single well lead division able to flank the enemy army and raid rear areas, and the enemy having to dispatch similar-sized formations to run it down and stop it. (very realistic)

5) The Init system appears again in the ability of a high-Init commander being capable of leading his army unit in a more vigorous manner than a low-Init enemy corps commander, and pinning him down to fight at long odds because he couldn't get his corps out of the way fast enough.

6) With the addition of another general ability, like "force marching", you might consider that all the units led by that commander could exceed the province movement limitation by one province, while taking double or triple march attrition, ala Jackson and his "foot cavalry" during the Valley Campaign.

A question for Eric and the gang is whether any of this is possible within the current programming structure or is it simply impossible without breaking the whole game code?

Sorry for the long post, but I was really running with all the possibilities that this would open up for the players.

Cheers,
MadMike

Edit for clarification: when I use the division/corps/army designation for unit size, I'm not limiting the designation to the container unit only, rather I'm referencing the number of brigades within the container. So, an army container with 3-5 brigades is not restricted to army 1-province movement, but may move as nimbly as any division. In my mind, it is the number of individual brigades that must be coordinated that limits the largest units operational radius, not the size of the staff or the rank of the CG.
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Gil R.
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Gil R. »

A question for Eric and the gang is whether any of this is possible within the current programming structure or is it simply impossible without breaking the whole game code?

"The gang" will defer to Eric on this since, as he often likes to point out to us, we don't know how to program.

More than fifteen years ago I did make a pretty nifty database for pitching stats using BASICA, but he's rather unimpressed by that.
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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Thanks Gil, although we've gotten no answer to that question just yet.
 
The reason I ask is that if it is impossible, I'll stop being excited about the further strategic and operational challenges the idea could pose, and move on with my life. As it is, I'm constantly imagining the gameplay possibilities and wondering if it could even be modded for a trial run.
 
WCS, can I beta-test this idea with somebody? [&o] Please?
 
Cheers,
MadMike
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Mike13z50
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Mike13z50 »

There is another thing that has troubled me about container movement, the inabillity to construct Cavalry Divisions or Corps. Shouldn't a container with only Cavalry brigades have the three province movement rate of cav, and for that matter have a better chance of actually moving, then a mixed or pure infantry force?
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Drex
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Drex »

They could I suppose but they still have baggage trains.
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ericbabe
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by ericbabe »

The initiative rating of a military group is the average of the brigades in the group (averaged with the rate of the group itself) -- so a cavalry division will move at a higher initiative than an infantry division.

EDIT: And divisions with a lot of artillery should move slower than infantry divisions without.
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ericbabe
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by ericbabe »

Lowering the movement rates of larger groups wouldn't be too hard to do -- actually it's a simple mod to the AcwUnits file, and if I get a chance later today I'll rig up a version for you to test out.  The AI isn't optimized for this movement system and my guess is that it would be put at a disadvantage... it would still be thinking in terms of the old system.  It would not be easy to change this.  The AI may still be a challenge -- only testing can really tell.

Adding new abilities to generals is significantly more work -- though if we make an expansion pack for FOF this is something we will consider for that.
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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Eric,
 
Wow, that is fantastic news!
 
My pbem opponent and I would love to try out this change, and I'll talk to him about doing an AAR for this mod-version, so you guys can see how the changes affect the game.
 
I'm very appreciative of the fact that you're open-minded enough to consider the idea, then even make the change for me, that is true fan-support.
 
BTW, FoF prompted me to buy CoG, I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to fit both into my family-work-game schedule. (what a terrible position to be in) Also, I wanted to let you know that FoF completely quenched my fire for a very commercially high-profile game that I was playing until my first look at the FoF manual. (Company of Heroes)
 
Thanks, WCS!
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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Eric, please tell me your post wasn't an april fool's joke, that would be cruel.
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ericbabe
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by ericbabe »

Here's the modified data file; rename it to AcwUnits.txt and copy it over this file in the /Data directory (make a backup of that file first).

This file gives armies a move of 1, corps a move of 2, and divisions a move of 3.

If you'd like to play with the values, edit the file in a spreadsheet. The column MovesOnPhases gives the movement phases on which the unit can move in binary, so in the new file Army has an 8, so it moves on phase 3; Corps has a 12, so it moves on phases 2 and 3; Division has a 14, so it moves on phases 1,2,3.

Let us know how it works.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: MadMike
Eric, please tell me your post wasn't an april fool's joke, that would be cruel.

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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Eric, wow, thanks again! I'll keep you informed.
 
Erik, that is one of the virtues I struggle most with. I will now go hold hot coals in my bare hands in penance.
 
Cheers,
Mike
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Odium
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Odium »

I very interested to see how this works. I love the idea that divisions can move faster and more provinces and bigger armies move slower and are more "clumsy".

You could also keep the movement rates the same but make march attrition much worse the larger force you have. So people could still have the choice to move large armies but pay for it. Therefore you wouldn't have huge armies marching half way around the country unless the player REALLY needed to.
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Whew, after a solid week of getting my butt kicked by family and work obligations, I've finally gotten a FoF container-move-mod (FoFcmm) pbem game underway with f15Eagle.
 
We're playing advanced settings, default generals (hidden attributes), always instant battle, and we're ignoring the replay files for now, using the "Coming Fury" scenario.
 
We'll both convey our impressions as it develops.
 
Cheers,
Mike
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Gil R.
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Gil R. »

Excellent news! Please keep us posted.
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christof139
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by christof139 »

Greetings gents!

Longtime lurker, 1st time poster on this forum.

WCS: I'm having a great (read frustrating) time playing and trying to master this incredibly deep game, well done!

My comment/question is in regards to the CSA AI's post-beta penchant for running sprints between James River and Paducah with large army-sized (110k+) formations with little or no cost and distressing regularity. If the transportation infrastructure and logistics of the day allowed this, why didn't the AoNV head off to relieve Vicksburg in a quick 3-4 month round-trip operation?

This issue has only really come to my attention post-beta, and I wondered if it had come to anyone else's attention.

My immediate reaction is to suggest that movement rates be additionally affected by container size, if not even by actual unit size. It would seem to be realistic to expect that a large army-sized formation would find it hard to keep pace with a more nimble corps-sized unit, and the same for a corps and a division.

If I recall correctly; the ACW consisted of many, many smaller engagements than large pitched battles ala Gettysburg. In fact, wasn't the ACW noted for having the most battles of any American war ever?

Possibly a simple 1-2-3 structure would suffice to reflect this dynamic, with Army units moving 1 province, Corps units moving up to 2, and Division units capable of up to 3 provinces. (this could all be affected by command, generals, supply, quality, disposition, terrain, and weather of course)

The drama and fluidity of the game would certainly be increased with the incentive to use smaller sized units for more rapid-tempo operations, while the big armies ground against each other in their wars of attrition.

How do the grognards on board feel about this idea?

Cheers,
MadMike

The USA forces also make that same sprint from the DC area into eastern Kentucky, and that occurs at the Lt. Col. level of play and below and I imagine at levels above Lt. Col.

Interesting idea you have of having larger containers such as Armies and Corps move at a slower rate than Divisional containers and seperate Brigades. One province per turn for the Armies and Corps and two provinces per turn for Divisions and seperate Brigades. Would be nice to have a stratefic forced march for only the Amies and Corps whereby they could move two provinces using a forced march option, but then after doing so couldn't again conduct a strategic forced march for say two to four turns in the future.

Chris
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MadMike
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by MadMike »

Thanks Gil, will do.
 
Chris, I was hoping to hear from you on this issue.
 
The way it's structured now, the movement rates are Army:1, Corps:2, Divisions:3. (not sure about individual brigades)
 
Interestingly, that setup by default limits the amount of march attrition an Army can take to 5% due to a one province move restriction, while Corps could take up to 10%, and Divisions up to 15%, if they utilize their full movement.
 
Already I've seen that this mod makes it much more difficult to coordinate movement between different sized formations, arranging for different sized formations to arrive in the same province at the same time from different start points is much more complicated.
 
Eric, how difficult would it be to allow a high-init general to have a chance to move his Corps or Army command in an earlier phase, not necessarily be able to move it farther but just sooner?
 
Thanks,
Mike
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Gil R.
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RE: Container Movement Rates

Post by Gil R. »

How is forced march working? How far can the different types of forces move when doing this in your modded version?
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