Bomberment Bug in 1.804

[Rainer]

Test Scenario:
WinXP Pro SP2 US
1.804
Allies vs. Computer, very hard, Game Date April 11, 1944
Daily turns
NO MODS
Sound and Video subdirs renamed (disabled).
Alternate Font

With all the splendid improvements Don and Joe brought us with 1.804 there also comes a new bug (or so I think).
A bombardment TF with 3 BBs was send to Japanese occupied Kwajalein. The TF bombarded Kwajalein, and to make sure everything goes as planned the TF was set to "Allow escorts to bombard : NO" even though there are no other ships.
The TF was nevertheless hit by about 50 shells from shore guns.

This makes it VERY difficult to silence guns ashore. In earlier versions BBs were literally invulnerable from those guns IF
and WHEN the Bombardment TF was set to fire without the escorts. The reasoning went something like "BBs outrange the shore batteries".
Now, isn't that true anymore?
Saves before and after available upon request.

Cheers
Rainer

[wdolson]

I don't know what is at Kwajalein, but a lot depends on the caliber of the naval defenses. Some locations have large caliber naval guns that can hit a bombarding battleship. I just looke din the database and it looks like the coastal guns that start at Kwajalein are 5.5 inch, so they shouldn't have been able to hit BBs at range.

Did your escort get shot up too?

Bill

[Sardaukar]

No other ships than BBs in TF ? "Tactical AI" probably thought they'd be safe sailing right next to puny enemy cannons. If you had added couple of DDs, they'd have stayed further away, me thinks.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Test Scenario:
WinXP Pro SP2 US
1.804
Allies vs. Computer, very hard, Game Date April 11, 1944
Daily turns
NO MODS
Sound and Video subdirs renamed (disabled).
Alternate Font

With all the splendid improvements Don and Joe brought us with 1.804 there also comes a new bug (or so I think).
A bombardment TF with 3 BBs was send to Japanese occupied Kwajalein. The TF bombarded Kwajalein, and to make sure everything goes as planned the TF was set to "Allow escorts to bombard : NO" even though there are no other ships.
The TF was nevertheless hit by about 50 shells from shore guns.

This makes it VERY difficult to silence guns ashore. In earlier versions BBs were literally invulnerable from those guns IF
and WHEN the Bombardment TF was set to fire without the escorts. The reasoning went something like "BBs outrange the shore batteries".
Now, isn't that true anymore?
Saves before and after available upon request.

Cheers
Rainer

Realistic. A gun on the land was worth four at sea due to factors like reduced dispersion and pre-existing surveys, and if the installations were behind the gun emplacements, the bombarding ships had to approach even closer. To take out a hardened installation, bombardment ships had to use destructive fire, rather than suppressive fire, which meant approaching within about 1/3 range and having an observer (preferably in the air) correct the shots onto the target. Suppressive fire was used, but only in the context of an assault landing.

[Rainer]

3 BBs, nothing else

[Rainer]

Realistic or not is not the issue her.
I'm talking about a change in WitP versions.

[Rainer]

Tested this.
If and when I include escorts (actually a couple of CAs, CLs and DDs) the whole TF gets shot up badly. Even if escorts are not allowed to fire.
That has been different with pre 1.804 versions.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Tested this.
If and when I include escorts (actually a couple of CAs, CLs and DDs) the whole TF gets shot up badly. Even if escorts are not allowed to fire.
That has been different with pre 1.804 versions.

There have been no changes to bombardment code made since Don and I came on board (March 2006).

[Halsey]

It's really a question of tactics.[;)]

I rarely do shoot and scoot bombardments.
Not saying I don't ever do them.[:D]

On planned invasions, I start a day before the actual event.
BB's and CA's first.
On D-day, there are usually 3 seperate bombardment TF's with escorts off.
CA and CL bombardment TF's continue to attack over the next three days, or until the troops are unloaded.

Always have ONE good SCTF present to deter hostile intent.[;)]

For invasions, it's a question of having your LCU's loaded properly for quick debarkation.[;)]

Not a bug, working as designed.

[Rainer]

Hm, sorry for the remark I've made.
Anyway, your reply shows that you care and monitor what's going on here. And that's good. Very good.
Thanks a bunch.
Cheers
Rainer

[Rainer]

Well, that's why I'm confused.
I play WitP the day it come out.
My tactics to assault either atolls or land bases has always been to send a bombardment TF to see if coastal guns were present.
These "scouting" TFs had, if available, at least one BB, and a couple of CAs, CLs, DDs. However, at the first run the escorts were not allowed to shot, so the BBs would shot from max distance (several postings here indicated that BBs outrange coastal guns).
This way I could see if coastal guns were present, and if not, the escorts got a free hand to shot.

The whole purpose of all of this is the repeated and extremely painful experience of having an assault TF being decimated by assaulting a base with coastal guns present (to make it really painful let your infantry land from LST type ships)

I should probably mention that the three BBs in my example (initial posting) were not really hurt by the hits.
So basically I can go on with my initial tactics.

Thanks to you and all others for caring, answering and advice.
Cheers
Rainer

[Halsey]

If you want to test the defense.
Send in a lone MSW in a MSW TF.

CD's hate those guys.[:D]

[Rainer]

Great idea
I did that when my carriers "detected" mines near Truk.
A minesweeper TF was dispatched along with a bombardment TF, and a carrier TF to provide air cover.
Funny enough the little guys (MSW) quietly and efficiently removed (some of) the mines.
The bombardment TF shelled the base, took a couple of hits but nothing serious.
Then the whole armada withdraw to Tarawa (haven't conquered Kwajalein yet).
So it looks like the guys operating the coastal guns look for the big targets first. Which I think is wise
Cheers
Rainer

PS: How do you correct a misspelling in the subject line?

[Halsey]

There are other tricks to Amph Ops.

Load an invasion TF.
The after it's loaded, turn it into an Escort TF.
It will perform the same mission, and you can add BB's to it.

The BB's will suck up the CD fire during the unloading phases.[;)]

[jwilkerson]

I have one twist on your trick .. after I add the BBs, I switch the TF back to 'transport' .. I guess just cause I'm afraid it might disrupt the troops faster if they're unloading from a non-trans TF .. but I haven't drilled into that .. just a worry ...

Of course, I did find that BBs can also "suck up" the mine hits ... my "Mutsu" took 5 mine hits when invading Darwin and Darwin hadn't been beefed up beyond what he starts with. So life is full of trade offs [:D]

[Rainer]

That trick may become very handy in acouple of days when I will assault Kwajalein.
If all goes well - and according to your advice - Japanese AI will have to deal with TWO Halseys. One in the game (actually in charge of SoPac) and the one of the WitP Forum.
With opponents like this I feel sorry for the Japanese AI [:)]
Cheers and thanks
Rainer

PS: Don, Joe, could that Forum Halsey please be included in the AI procedures? [;)]

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: Rainer

That trick may become very handy in acouple of days when I will assault Kwajalein.
If all goes well - and according to your advice - Japanese AI will have to deal with TWO Halseys. One in the game (actually in charge of SoPac) and the one of the WitP Forum.
With opponents like this I feel sorry for the Japanese AI [:)]
Cheers and thanks
Rainer

PS: Don, Joe, could that Forum Halsey please be included in the AI procedures? [;)]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.[:D]

Some of my opponents probably wouldn't agree with you.[;)][:D]

[Rainer]

Yes Sir. Anytime Sir.
Please advice direction to remaining opponents, Sir.
Will be crushed in no time, Sir.
[;)]

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I have one twist on your trick .. after I add the BBs, I switch the TF back to 'transport' .. I guess just cause I'm afraid it might disrupt the troops faster if they're unloading from a non-trans TF .. but I haven't drilled into that .. just a worry ...

Of course, I did find that BBs can also "suck up" the mine hits ... my "Mutsu" took 5 mine hits when invading Darwin and Darwin hadn't been beefed up beyond what he starts with. So life is full of trade offs [:D]

I have never been comfortable "cheating" (for want of a better word) to add BBs to Transport TFs. But hey, that does not make it wrong.

[Halsey]

Not cheating.
In reality the US did deploy heavies in these TF's.

You can look at just about any photograph from those days, and see the big ships parked right there, hammering away.[;)]
While the landing craft are going in.