The point of some CVP dates?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ezz

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: ezz
Anyone else have any good house rules for dealing with this problem?
Also a better scrapping obselete rule?

What do you think needs to be improved with the scrapping rule?

Well I may be wrong but I think the rule is aircraft can be scrapped if they are 3 years old {4 years for neutral powers.}
Destroyed units may always be scrapped.

My problem was Aircraft that you might wish to return to the force pool in 1940 { Assuming they were destroyed } you might not draw until 1943.

Eg a spitfire MK1 is destroyed in 1940 and you return it to the force pool. Now you might not draw that plane before the end of the year.Then the 1941 types are added. There is a possibility of drawing this very outclassed fighter all the way up to 1944 before you could remove it.

Our group felt 3 years was too long a period to wait for aircraft to be scrapped. we had a 2 year rule.

another group had a 4 year rule PRE 1940.
2 years to 1942
and from 1944 1 year { so that the 1944 force pool might only contain 1943 / 1944 planes. }

Thanks for the information. Presently, this is outside of what I am doing, since I am 'merely' implementing WIF FE rules. But knowing the concerns players have is always of interest to me.

Simply restating your point (to make sure I understand it correctly). While an air unit destroyed in 1940 might be one of the best you have at that time (and therefore you do not scrap it), as the years go by, it becomes one of the worst in the force pool, yet you are unable to scrap it until late in the war.

Playing with pilots mitigates this somewhat, since the 'lost' build points (and time) are only for the air unit itself.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Unfortunately, you are not likely to get a reply from the WiF developers on this forum - if you have not already done so you might wish to surf on over to ADG's website and see if you can ask them there.

Yes. Or write Harry directly.

It is unlikely that you are the first person to notice this issue (the current CVP kits in SiF/CVPiF date back at least to 2004, although I am not certain), so if it has not been altered I imagine it is because either the development team does have a reason (which I hope they divulge to you), or changing it is too expensive for the benefits provided. Or both.

The first CVP date back to 1995, from the PiF kit, that is, before WiF FE even existed.
These countersheets were modified in 1997, 2000 and 2007, and this issue (if this is one) was always there.

My own opinion is that it is there so that you are never certain that your aeronautic industry will come up with the design that you really need on your Carriers. Sometimes in the aeronautic industry a plane was designed for Carrier operations, but went to real carrier operations only later (F4U for example). Also, sometimes land based designs were transformed to operate from Carriers, with more or less success (Seafires). The sizes, that may be too big for your Carriers, mean that this design that you produced is not designed correctly, and that some more time is needed for it to operate from Carriers. Until then, it stays in the reserve pool, engineers working to improve the design.

Aside from Germany's historical lack of a carrier air arm operating off actual carriers, the only reason that springs to my mind at the moment is that it's simply a designer's check on Germany's capabilities. Germany is mighty enough in WiF as is.

I think that the reason is that, if the US, Japanese and British, had difficulties designing planes for their carriers, the Germans would have far more, as they did not have any experience in flying planes from Carriers, and designing them.

[ezzler]

Precisely.

I know that you are implementing WIF Rules an not modifying them so i would not expect any rule changes.

Just wondered if any of the other Board gamers out there had had this problem {and any solutions}

Thanks for your reply

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ezz
Eg a spitfire MK1 is destroyed in 1940 and you return it to the force pool. Now you might not draw that plane before the end of the year.Then the 1941 types are added. There is a possibility of drawing this very outclassed fighter all the way up to 1944 before you could remove it.

No, you can remove it from the Force pool in the production step of J/F 1941, because Spitfire I is a model who enter the Force Pool in 1938 at the latest. It can be scrapped if the year is its entering year +3.

But also, that is your responsability as the head of the state, to decide that a design will be abandonned to another. By not scrapping the Spitfire I in 1939, you're saying the design bureau of Vickers-Supermarine that this design fits your needs, and that you need nothing more. Maybe they will make privately funded research & developpement and propose the improved designs to you (means that you pick a 1940 Spitfire II to be built for example), maybe they will keep on producing more of that Spitfire I design that you wished to keep, and the sum of this production that you authorised leads to a Fighter Wing of mainly Spitfire I to be created in late 1940.

You're the boss, you're making the choices, so do not blame the system on wrong choices from the boss.

[ezzler]

Well that is partially true.

But what design bureau would produce the spitfire MK V  and THEN decide to go back to the MK 1 ?
The ME 109E is too good to give up if destroyed in summer 1940, plus there may be another counter deployed on the map that would need to be scraped too. You must destroy your current best aircraft now to ensure better ones in the future...


Most games { especially computer games} operate an upgrade system so that equipment is improved over time.
The MK 2 follows the MK 1. The BF 109 F follows the E etc

WIF does this but due to the luck of the draw it can work backwards with an obsolete design following a revolutionary one.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ezz

Well that is partially true.

But what design bureau would produce the spitfire MK V  and THEN decide to go back to the MK 1 ?

It can't happen, as the Spit I can be scrapped in 1941, and the Spit V only enter the Force pool in 1941. So if you build Spit I in 1941, it is not the Design bureau who chose it, it is you, as you could have scrapped it in J/F 41 before building. If you do not scrap it, it means that you (as the governement) orders the industry to still build this mark.

The ME 109E is too good to give up if destroyed in summer 1940, plus there may be another counter deployed on the map that would need to be scraped too. You must destroy your current best aircraft now to ensure better ones in the future...


Most games { especially computer games} operate an upgrade system so that equipment is improved over time.
The MK 2 follows the MK 1. The BF 109 F follows the E etc

WIF does this but due to the luck of the draw it can work backwards with an obsolete design following a revolutionary one.

This goes with real life too. Particulary with the US aeronautic industry, who produced bad planes in the same time that they were producing good planes. P-39 & F2A for example, being produced at the same time as P-40 & F4F, which were superior. But due to bureaucracy, time taken for some designs to get to fly, maybe also a little corruption or accointances dealings, and you get something produced that is not optimal, while something better can be produced on private funds that you did not even ask for (P-51 was IIRC).

If you scrap well (as I described for the Spit I / Spit V case) you can't have very old planes built at the same time as new planes.
What you can have, is very old planes still on the map while newer planes arrive, and then again, it is your choice to keep them on the map, or put them back in the reserve pool to make their crew fly something better. Having them kept on the map was something that happened during WW2, with old Hurricanes for instance being sent to North Africa when better Spitfires were available for the new Circus missions.

[Caranorn]

Patrice you forgot about historic "gearing limits" (setting up the production lines etc.), that is you cannot simply switch production from one plane to another without temporary loss of productivity. Essentially you'd decide to stop production of the P-39 and order the factories to start production of the P-40, from lets say 100 P-39 per month (pulling a number here, too lazy to look up actual production numbers) you go to 5 P-40 the first month, second 10 P-40, third 20 P-40 and gradually climbing. That raises the question, do I need a lot of planes operational right away or can I plan ahead and start that slow switch from P-39 to P-40.

For the rest, I always saw the possibility of building an obsolete model after an excellent model as a possible design error that only became apparent in mass production. It might be an evolution of the same machine but with far worse capacities. Or just different requirements that in the end prove inadequate (mistake in doctrine). I first noticed and accepted this with the navies in WiF rather then aircraft, but in the end it works. There are many factors that could lead to a poor design entering service after a great design.

[flailen]

The first CVP date back to 1995, from the PiF kit, that is, before WiF FE even existed.
These countersheets were modified in 1997, 2000 and 2007, and this issue (if this is one) was always there.

Whaaaaaa? What CS did they update in 2007? According to most resources (xcel spreadsheet from ADG and your own website, the latest CS for PIF is 2000, and CVPiF is 1998. As a newb I have a hard enough time buying and organizing the FE edition, and dealing with the Cyberboard issues of the old Companion CD sheets I really getting lost. Did you mean MWIF when you typed 2007? And is that some insider information on the real release date?

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The first CVP date back to 1995, from the PiF kit, that is, before WiF FE even existed.
These countersheets were modified in 1997, 2000 and 2007, and this issue (if this is one) was always there.

Surely you ment 2004.

[ezzler]

One house rule is to sort the Cv planes by SIZE rather than year.
Units can be built ahead as usual..

I have never tried it but it might be intersting

1. light blue 1939 and pre war
2. orange 1940
3. green 1941
4. royal blue 1942
5. red 1943
6. violet 1944
7. black 1945+

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: flailen

The first CVP date back to 1995, from the PiF kit, that is, before WiF FE even existed.
These countersheets were modified in 1997, 2000 and 2007, and this issue (if this is one) was always there.

Whaaaaaa? What CS did they update in 2007? According to most resources (xcel spreadsheet from ADG and your own website, the latest CS for PIF is 2000, and CVPiF is 1998. As a newb I have a hard enough time buying and organizing the FE edition, and dealing with the Cyberboard issues of the old Companion CD sheets I really getting lost. Did you mean MWIF when you typed 2007? And is that some insider information on the real release date?

There is a reprint that is being done in 2007. This was done mainly because ADG was low on stocks for those CS. The reprinted CS are :
CS7-9 (Planes in Flames)
CS18-22 (Ship in Flames)
CS23 (Mech in Flames)
CS24 (Classic WiF)

As far as I know, but I have not yet received these CS, the reprint will only have minor changes, except for CS23.

The main change, will be that those CS will have a small letter on each coutner to identify from which kit the counter is. For the moment, the letter that already exist are :

AiF (CS26-28) have an "A"
CVPiF (CS29) have a "C"
PatiF (CS31-35) have a "T"
PoliF counters (CS30) have a "P"
CLiF (CS36) have a "CL"
CoiF (CS38) have a "Co".

The reprint will add a "PI" for counters from CS7-9, a "S" for counters from CS18-22, and a "M" for counters from CS23.

CS-7-9 have little changes. I recall that the Sunderlands now have their range in a white circle, meaning that their ATR role is now recognised. The CW C-47 is also dated later (1941 instead of 1939), and replaced by a new No PARA DC-3 counter for setup.

CS18-22 have their SUBs counters modified in combat factors and availability dates, because those CS are put in line with the design philosophy of CoiF and the 2003 reprint of the CS1-6. That is, the CS have the range & speed that improve other the years, not the CF.

CS23 is nearly all new, with some brand new city based volunteers counters for the USA, the CW, Italy, Japan. Germany already had a lot, and now each major power will have his City Based Volunteers. CS23 also regroups some counters that were printed previously in other nearly out of print CS, such as CS25 IIRC. There are new DIV, and even some new GBA DIV. There are also some extra GBA along with the ones reprinted from the older CS. There is also a new CW OIL buildable in Kuwait, a new CW DC-3 ATR counter to replace the normal C-47 that the CW get at setup.

CS24 has half a dozen US Entry markers with their value changed. About 3 markers who had a "0" value now have a "1" value, and I think I saw some 4 becoming 3, ir the reverse.

Anyway, when I'll have those CS, I'll make a comparison between the previous and the new ones, and I'll publish the precise informations on my website.

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp


CS-7-9 have little changes. I recall that the Sunderlands now have their range in a white circle, meaning that their ATR role is not recognised. The CW C-47 is also dated later, and replaced by a new No PARA DC-3 counter for setup.

So... a 20 range transport available from the start of the game. Nails or what?

I wasnt aware of the Sunderland being used as a transport in any significant military capacity during the war.

I'd be interested to understand the justification for this tweak.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Jimm
So... a 20 range transport available from the start of the game. Nails or what?
I wasnt aware of the Sunderland being used as a transport in any significant military capacity during the war.
I'd be interested to understand the justification for this tweak.

The Sunderland had the same transport capacity & the same use as the Mavis & Emily Japanese seaplanes, who get a white circle.
I forgot to also write that the Sunderland has a NO PARA symbol too.

[Froonp]

2 references I found about Sunderlands being used as transports.

***************************************
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/w ... under.html
After the war the SUnderland was pahased out slowly, but for a brief period was very active again. Only three squadrons remained when the air-lift to Berlin started. During the Berlin Airlift the aircraft of No.s 201, 230 and 235 Squadron hauled 4.800 tons of freight from Hamburg to Berlin Havel See in the period between June and December. After that the first two Squadrons remained operational until 1957 with Sunderlands. In the Far East the last Sunderland left operational service in 1959.
***************************************
Warpaint #25 - The Sunderland, p24
Apart from patrol work Sunderlands were much used as transport and they evacuated hundreds from the invasions of Norway, Yugoslabia, Greece and Crete.

***************************************

Also, Sunderlands were used by BAOC after the war.

[Mziln]

I thought we were using WiF final edition 2004.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

I thought we were using WiF final edition 2004.

I was just listing the history of the CVP in WiF, and talked about the new release, that's all.

[Neilster]

Brrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuummmmmm![:D]

Cheers, Neilster

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Warpaint #25 - The Sunderland, p24
Apart from patrol work Sunderlands were much used as transport and they evacuated hundreds from the invasions of Norway, Yugoslabia, Greece and Crete.

***************************************

Also, Sunderlands were used by BAOC after the war.

ok fair comment; I was aware that it was a commercial conversion but not that it was usable without an amount of refitting from a maritime recon/air to sea role to the air transport role in order to free up significant space.

(ok in comparison the C47 was not a big plane but there were a heck of a lot of them! There were not a huge number of flying porcupines).

Still, cool plane!

[trees]

great news Patrice! a new fix of new WiF stuff!