WAR IN THE MEDITERRANEAN: Speedy vs Pauk

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: fremen

The TOE of the base units in North Africa was +50% in the beta testing. Reduced 50% the axis air capacity in NA was my first intent to fight against the "Roller Axis Ball" effect the first weeks, when the axis player traslate all your air superiority to NA. I think (again) the best solution is some HOME RULES.

Yes, i've noticed that i'm short with air support in the North Africa and i can not move air groups there just like that. What about reducing TOE of base forces in the Sicily?

[pauk]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/02/42


MALTA/SICILY


First strike was enough to close Malta AF...other strikes from Sicily and Southern
Italia finished damaged ac on the ground easily...




Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 26
CR-25 x 4
MC-200 x 22
Bf-109F-4 x 27
MC-202 x 21
Re-2001 x 19
BR 20 M x 28
Ju-88A-4 x 41
Bf-109F-4 R2 Recon x 3

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc x 15
Spitfire Vc x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 : 3 damaged
MC-200: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Re-2001: 1 damaged
BR 20 M: 1 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc: 8 destroyed
Spitfire Vc: 2 destroyed
Beaufighter VIF: 1 destroyed
Wellington III: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
47 casualties reported

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 67

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 13000 feet
9 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
8 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 13000 feet
9 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
6 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
6 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
6 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 13000 feet
2 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
2 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 29
Ju-88A-4 x 49
Hs-126 B-2 x 5

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ju-88A-4: 2 destroyed, 10 damaged
Hs-126 B-2: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 4 destroyed
Beaufighter VIF: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIc: 9 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported

Airbase hits 6
Runway hits 43

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 26900 feet
18 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
9 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
1 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 26900 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
CR-42 x 15
SM 84 x 6
IMAM Ro-37 x 1

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 84: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 84 x 15

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 84: 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIc: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x SM 84 bombing at 15000 feet
3 x SM 84 bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
Ca-311 x 3
BR 20 M x 7

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
BR 20 M: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc: 1 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet




NORTH ARFICA


We are not going to tolerate this anymore!

Day Air attack on Mersa Brega , at 44,132

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 5

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Bf-109F-4 Trop: 1 destroyed
Ju-87 D (Ger): 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
39 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 1

8000 feet


I've bombed enemy unit just to prevent enemy armoured units from capturing Barce
(60 miles north of Benghazi - both bases are in my hands)

Day Air attack on 1st Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 7
MC-200 x 14
Ju-88A-4 x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 : 3 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
4 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 19
Z-1007 Bis x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Z-1007 Bis: 8 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 7th Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 6
MC-200 x 2
Ju-88A-4 x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 : 1 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet


25th (Bologna) division arrives at Barce - this base is now safe. I predict that Englander will keep his armoured units at Barce and once when my panzers arrives there will run away like Forrest Gump!

Ground combat at Barce

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 10566 troops, 199 guns, 438 vehicles, Assault Value = 400

Defending force 23098 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 333


Japanese ground losses:
34 casualties reported

[Hipper]

A few thoughts on the malta problem

in reality it was possible for the combined axis airforces to shut down some of the malta airfields however they were usually back in operation the next day ... spitfires over malta is very good on this one solution coud be extra engineers on malta.

Indeed one of RHS's supply sinks might be a good idea to represent the maltese civilian population and the requirement to run suplies to the island.

One thing I noted was the continuing refrain of the pilots on malta that "novices are no good out here" and that they tended to send back rookie pilots (such was the excess of pilots that squadrons used to fly on alternate days planes rather than pilots being in short supply) but its difficult to argue that the RAF pilots were more experinced than the axis pilots they flew against

Re AA guns one handy figure I remember was that the authourised issue for AA guns in malta was 144 light AA & 144 heavy AA I'll check that up in the official history

Cheers

[histgamer]

I was curious since this is a mod and people might know this.
 
Is it possible to create your own mod of the current game and add new ships under construction? Like could i create my own hypothetical BB class that arrives after the Yammatos or add a 3rd Yammato class ship to arrive later in the game?

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: JeffK
There is also am myth about the "poor Italian Air Force", their opponents at the time were flying Gladiators & Pzl 11 and only later got a few Hurricanes with a bloody sand filter which took about 20mph off their speed.

What is Pzl 11?

[rtrapasso]

Tsk, tsk... [:'(]

It is apparently an obsolete POLISH fighter aircraft... how the Brits would have had them... [&:]

Here is a pic - sort of looks like a Lysander to me...



EDIT:
The Wiki article says it was used by Poland and Romania - no mention of the Brits using them...

Here's some more details:
"The aircraft was conventional in layout, with high wings, all-metal, metal-covered. The cockpit was open. An internal fuel tank in a hull could be dropped in case of fire emergency. The armament was two 7.92mm machineguns on hull sides, some 1/3 of P.11c had additional two machineguns in wings. P-11c could carry four small 12.5 kg bombs (P.11a could not). The radial engines used were: P-11a: Bristol Mercury IV S2 (normal: 525 hp, maximum: 575 hp); P-11b: Gnome-Rhone 9Krsd (550 hp, max: 595 hp), P.11c: Bristol Mercury V S2 (565 hp, max: 600 hp) or Mercury VI S2 (590 hp, max: 630 hp), P.11f: Gnome-Rhone 9Krse (560 hp, max: 610 hp)."

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: JeffK
There is also am myth about the "poor Italian Air Force", their opponents at the time were flying Gladiators & Pzl 11 and only later got a few Hurricanes with a bloody sand filter which took about 20mph off their speed.

What is Pzl 11?

A Polish fighter that was used by the Greek air force in 40-41.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

DELETED - Double post.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I was asking about Pzl 11 - I know what is P.11 [:D] (it was produced by PZL)

BTW. If it is in this mod - it is incorrect. P.11 was used only by Polish Air Force (and maybe by Romanians or other Axis minors - if captured planes were ceded to them). Greek Air Force used export (much improved, better, not used in Poland) version of it: P.24 (actually P.24F's and P.24G's).

Fremen, you should check if you put correct data in your mod.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

I was asking about Pzl 11 - I know what is P.11 [:D] (it was produced by PZL)

Ah - P.11 is referred to as PZL 11 (at least sometimes) in English info...
i.e. - at this site:

http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.co ... /pzl11.htm

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Incorrect - and look higher as I added info.

I understand it can be confusing, as all other (non-fighter) planes designations, which leave that factory, were designated as PZL xx.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Incorrect - and look higher as I added info.

Well, it would explain why the Wiki article did not mention it being used by the Brits... [:D]

BTW - not sure if it is actually used in the mod... someone (JeffK) stated the Brits were using them, not the actual modders.

i haven't loaded the mod, so i don't know WHAT folks are using except for the screen shots, AARs that Pauk and Speedy are posting.

[Dixie]

It's not in the mod.

[PzB74]

I leave the forum for a couple of days and suddenly Pauk-San turns into Von-Pauk [:D]

Looks very interesting, will follow this one with Argus eyes. A bit afraid that the main focus will be on land combat, not the
strongest part of the game. When will we see the first fleet encounters - and how has the Italian fleet been modelled to incorporate
its historical weaknesses? Are most leaders hard coded to be defensive according to orders from High Command?

Italian special attack units were quite efficient in real life, guess these are not included?

[pauk]

If this mod was created when i started game against Andy, Von Pauk would help his student (Pauk-san studied panzer blitz tactic in the Germany, do you still recall it[:D]) with attack on Suez channel and Axis forces would met each other in Karachi[:D]

I think that is a next step in the WiTP evolution - incoporation of these two games into one and therefore simulate historical situation where Brits were under the pressure both from Ita/Germany and Japan[;)][:D]

re Italian fleet: no this is not a modeled - in fact all leaders (ground, naval, air) are still Japanese. Changing leaders requires a hard work, and Fremen was overhelmed with mod....still waiting for few enthusiatic guys for this part of the work....


There is no special weapons in the mod and i don't need them - Speedygomory will be thrown out of Africa even without them i can guarantee!![;)]

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: pauk
I think that is a next step in the WiTP evolution - incoporation of these two games into one and therefore simulate historical situation where Brits were under the pressure both from Ita/Germany and Japan[;)][:D]

If I was with Matrix Games, I would take a deep look into this proposal...

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Widell

ORIGINAL: pauk
I think that is a next step in the WiTP evolution - incoporation of these two games into one and therefore simulate historical situation where Brits were under the pressure both from Ita/Germany and Japan[;)][:D]

If I was with Matrix Games, I would take a deep look into this proposal...

I'd be more interested in getting a game design of WITP's scale to work before massively increasing it in size.[X(]

[qgaliana]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Widell

ORIGINAL: pauk
I think that is a next step in the WiTP evolution - incoporation of these two games into one and therefore simulate historical situation where Brits were under the pressure both from Ita/Germany and Japan[;)][:D]

If I was with Matrix Games, I would take a deep look into this proposal...

I'd be more interested in getting a game design of WITP's scale to work before massively increasing it in size.[X(]

To be fair - a lot of it works. If they could eliminate the hard coded bits, I'm sure modders would take care of more new theatres, and probably correct some of the design issues like several have tried with air combat.

On the other hand, increasing the scope would make a difficult game even harder - they probably need a better interface to support multiple players per side before doing that.

I'm starting to think this game may be better suited to shorter scenarios with more limited scope.

Sorry to hijack the AAR (again)- love the concept of this mod, plus I think this will be a really interesting test of the game system.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,
 
Turn 3 sent back to Pauk.
 
Malta is closed well and good as Pauk says and will remain so. About 30 planes remain there damaged to be destroyed.
 
The problem with the Malta situation as I see it is Malta was heavily battered during the war and remain in a precarious position for a long period of time. However, I see the WiTP model as an all or nothign scenario as such Malta is now smashed and will remain closed with NO chance of even 5-10 fighters ever taking off their again. IRL at leats some planes took off to contest almost every raid. It was also a rarity that a massive combined stike was launched against Malta ona repeated basis. This is hard to model in WiTP as it stands IMO.
 
North Africa will now be the focus. It will be interesting to see how things go there.
 
One quick question fremen - Italian Industry. How well researched has it been? It seems like there is a LOT of industry in Italy. From my BTR testing and playing I have a decent feel for the Italian industry side of things and for example Taranto seems to have a LOT of stuff that I wonder if it was truly there?

[kokubokan25]

One quick question fremen - Italian Industry. How well researched has it been? It seems like there is a LOT of industry in Italy. From my BTR testing and playing I have a decent feel for the Italian industry side of things and for example Taranto seems to have a LOT of stuff that I wonder if it was truly there?

Unfortunately i don't have any information about Italian industry during WWII. Only good information over aircraft production.
With so limited scope on industry, resources, oil, etc..my only intention was reflect the fuel and supplies shortages.
I used a excell spreadsheet to put resources, oil, industries, etc..(at random between italian bases) and garantee minimal supplies during 1942 and first quarter of 43. As i said before, the industry is in a early development in this scenario and must be testing.