history or not history, that is the question

From the creators of Crown of Glory come an epic tale of North Vs. South. By combining area movement on the grand scale with optional hex based tactical battles when they occur, Forge of Freedom provides something for every strategy gamer. Control economic development, political development with governers and foreign nations, and use your military to win the bloodiest war in US history.

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General Quarters
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history or not history, that is the question

Post by General Quarters »

When I was on a congressional staff, I noticed that, on any given issue, one on which polls showed an evenly divided public, almost all the mail however would be on one side. If a change was proposed, the people who hated the change all wrote in while the people who were happy with it did not bother. The "mail poll" could be very misleading to the congressman.

That experience can back to me as I looked through the long thread generated by those players strongly attached to their own sense of what a historical game should be like. Although the thread runs for 9 pages, many of the posts are from a handful of people.

I note all this just to say that the designers should not assume that this is a representative sample. Or lose too much sleep over it. You're doing great work. Good night, and sweet dreams.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by regularbird »

assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
chris0827
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by chris0827 »

The designers asked us to post. I'm sorry if it bothers you that we have an opinion and care about history.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Alan_Bernardo »

While this may be the case, the old adage still applies: the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
 
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Queeg
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Queeg »

While a vocal handful clearly want a more "historical" game (though they have a hard time reaching any consensus on what exactly that means), there may well be hundreds of folks who are playing the game and enjoying the fact that the designers opted for balanced setup that provides a challenging game to each side. A game like this certainly should strive for authenticity. But there's nothing at all wrong with also trying to be fun.

While it is important for game designers to listen to their audience, it is equally important that they remain faithful to their own design vision. There was never a game made that a vocal cabal of self-appointed grognards didn't immediately claim they would have done things differently. Happens every time. And while their suggestions can be very valuable, design by committee is usually a recipe for diaster in the long run.

The designers here clearly have tried to provide options sufficient to satisfy gamers at each end of the spectrum and are open to suggestions for historical improvement. All likely will be well.

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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Pubcrawler »

ORIGINAL: Queeg

design by committee is usually a recipe for diaster in the long run.


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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

I'll 3rd that. [:D]
ORIGINAL: Pubcrawler

ORIGINAL: Queeg

design by committee is usually a recipe for diaster in the long run.


yessir!
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Twotribes »

Well one must, using the first post, assume that the desire to stiffle change is wrong since after all the majority of posts in this thread say so.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by sven6345789 »

regarding historical game, it is difficult to point out what that means
the war had four turning points which could have gone one way or the other
1)summer 1862 (Counteroffensive of Lee and Bragg stop the Union short of victory)
2)Fall 1862 (Antietam and Perryville; CSA not recognized by Europe and stopped a democratic Victory in the 1862 elections+ giving the basis for emancipation proclamation)
3)summer and Fall 1863 (Gettysburg, Vicksburg, Chattanooga->setting the course for the Union victory)
4)summer 1864 (no advance on the Richmond and Atlanta fronts->almost resulting in a democratic victory for presidency; only the capture of Atlanta and Sheridans Shenandoah Campaign against Early finally turned the tide towards the only now inevitable northern victory after Lincolns reelection)

each one of these four turning points could have easily taken the other direction, leading to international recognition of the CSA, democratic party victories during mid-term elections or election for the presidency of the USA, or an early union victory in 1862. Therefore, there was an enormous amount of luck and psychology involved. of course industrial output was important, but a lost election in 1864 would have ended that (this effect is in the game, and it is good that it is)
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by ericbabe »

What we should have done was to provide a separate scenario and perhaps an option auto-select button to choose a more historical setup.  We still have our original economic tables that Mr Z. researched from the 1860 census data (inter alia) and we're working to reconstruct our original scenario data for incorporation in an upcoming update (hopefully the next one, but not certain we'll finish before that's ready).

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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

What we should have done was to provide a separate scenario and perhaps an option auto-select button to choose a more historical setup.  We still have our original economic tables that Mr Z. researched from the 1860 census data (inter alia) and we're working to reconstruct our original scenario data for incorporation in an upcoming update (hopefully the next one, but not certain we'll finish before that's ready).


That's all anyone has ever asked for Eric. Give us ONE solidly historically researched scenario to go with the "equality" nonsense. No-one asking for "history" has ever "demanded" that the "Jeff Davis Wet Dream" fantasies be removed..., just that "reality" be made an option as well. Why the "equality gamers" are so afraid of this possibility has always remained a mystery to the rest of us....
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Erik Rutins »

Yes and the message has been heard and understood and work is in progress. Now can we all get along? [;)]
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by walkerd »

ORIGINAL: Queeg

While a vocal handful clearly want a more "historical" game (though they have a hard time reaching any consensus on what exactly that means), there may well be hundreds of folks who are playing the game and enjoying the fact that the designers opted for balanced setup that provides a challenging game to each side. A game like this certainly should strive for authenticity. But there's nothing at all wrong with also trying to be fun.

I suspect more then a handfull, more like the silent majority. As it stands I will not be buying the game. I went to the effort of buying COG just to prepare myself for this game and am still waiting.

I only want a "historical" game, otherwise, to me at least, there is no point in buying the game. While I can play any random game, I am looking for a game of the American Civil War.

I suspect we will see it eventuate, I just hope it will not take too long.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: walkerd
I suspect more then a handfull, more like the silent majority. As it stands I will not be buying the game. I went to the effort of buying COG just to prepare myself for this game and am still waiting.
I only want a "historical" game, otherwise, to me at least, there is no point in buying the game. While I can play any random game, I am looking for a game of the American Civil War.\
I suspect we will see it eventuate, I just hope it will not take too long.

There are a lot of folks who have posted less frequently who are having a great time with the game just as it is.

One thing I will regret is if the comments here make folks hold off because they believe the game is ahistorical. The only result that will create is a bad one for everyone. In its current form, all you need do is adjust a few of the many provided settings to get a game that is at least as historical as any previous ACW computer grand strategy game around. We're responding to the desire for a scenario that starts with everything exactly as it was, with no need for settings adjustment and have made a number of other changes to also increase the historical accuracy.

FoF remains, from its initial release, historical and fun - with the level of historicity depending largely on how you adjust the optional settings. The upcoming update will improve things in a variety of areas, from historical accuracy to playability and game balance based on customer feedback. Western Civilization Software are among the most open-minded and community-friendly developers I've worked with and they are being very responsive to the early feedback.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by TheHellPatrol »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

FoF remains, from its initial release, historical and fun - with the level of historicity depending largely on how you adjust the optional settings. The upcoming update will improve things in a variety of areas, from historical accuracy to playability and game balance based on customer feedback. Western Civilization Software are among the most open-minded and community-friendly developers I've worked with and they are being very responsive to the early feedback.

Regards,

- Erik
I agree 110% and anyone who shunned FOF as ahistorical is only letting themselves down. The options are all there to be perused at the players discretion. In fact the only thing i cannot do, as a player not a tester, is allow the South to emancipate. I don't think in reality they would have ever conceded that point, nor would the North embrace slavery. FOF is the deepest historical simulation to date of the American Civil War and i am so glad that i made this purchase. I will be playing this for many, many months...if not years[:)].
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by tevans6220 »

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

regarding historical game, it is difficult to point out what that means
the war had four turning points which could have gone one way or the other
1)summer 1862 (Counteroffensive of Lee and Bragg stop the Union short of victory)
2)Fall 1862 (Antietam and Perryville; CSA not recognized by Europe and stopped a democratic Victory in the 1862 elections+ giving the basis for emancipation proclamation)
3)summer and Fall 1863 (Gettysburg, Vicksburg, Chattanooga->setting the course for the Union victory)
4)summer 1864 (no advance on the Richmond and Atlanta fronts->almost resulting in a democratic victory for presidency; only the capture of Atlanta and Sheridans Shenandoah Campaign against Early finally turned the tide towards the only now inevitable northern victory after Lincolns reelection)

each one of these four turning points could have easily taken the other direction, leading to international recognition of the CSA, democratic party victories during mid-term elections or election for the presidency of the USA, or an early union victory in 1862. Therefore, there was an enormous amount of luck and psychology involved. of course industrial output was important, but a lost election in 1864 would have ended that (this effect is in the game, and it is good that it is)

It's not that difficult. Nobody is asking for a 100% historical simulation of the Civil War. That goes out the window with the first move. All we ask for is to have the starting conditions to be as historically accurate as possible. Then if I make moves different from history so be it. Every Civil War game, computer or otherwise, that I have ever played has been able to get it right without having to balance or strengthen the South. This game, if it's going to be a serious Civil War simulation, needs to get those starting conditions right. We should not have to fiddle with difficulty or challenge settings in order to get something that resembles history. Those settings should only be there for those who want an easier or tougher challeng.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Queeg »

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Every Civil War game, computer or otherwise, that I have ever played has been able to get it right without having to balance or strengthen the South.

What games are those?
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Queeg »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There are a lot of folks who have posted less frequently who are having a great time with the game just as it is.

One thing I will regret is if the comments here make folks hold off because they believe the game is ahistorical. The only result that will create is a bad one for everyone. In its current form, all you need do is adjust a few of the many provided settings to get a game that is at least as historical as any previous ACW computer grand strategy game around. We're responding to the desire for a scenario that starts with everything exactly as it was, with no need for settings adjustment and have made a number of other changes to also increase the historical accuracy.

FoF remains, from its initial release, historical and fun - with the level of historicity depending largely on how you adjust the optional settings. The upcoming update will improve things in a variety of areas, from historical accuracy to playability and game balance based on customer feedback. Western Civilization Software are among the most open-minded and community-friendly developers I've worked with and they are being very responsive to the early feedback.

Regards,

- Erik

I really do think most folks who are playing the game agree with you. The number of serial critics here is actually quite small. And it certainly sounds like the update will (or at least should) address much of their criticism.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by Jonathan Palfrey »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
There are a lot of folks who have posted less frequently who are having a great time with the game just as it is.

One thing I will regret is if the comments here make folks hold off because they believe the game is ahistorical. The only result that will create is a bad one for everyone. In its current form, all you need do is adjust a few of the many provided settings to get a game that is at least as historical as any previous ACW computer grand strategy game around. We're responding to the desire for a scenario that starts with everything exactly as it was, with no need for settings adjustment and have made a number of other changes to also increase the historical accuracy.

FoF remains, from its initial release, historical and fun - with the level of historicity depending largely on how you adjust the optional settings. The upcoming update will improve things in a variety of areas, from historical accuracy to playability and game balance based on customer feedback. Western Civilization Software are among the most open-minded and community-friendly developers I've worked with and they are being very responsive to the early feedback.

It's a built-in problem with any game forum -- or any product forum of any kind -- that the dissatisfied are over-represented. People who love the game may post once to say so, if they can spare the time from playing the thing, but people who have complaints are more likely to post, and are more likely to post repeatedly. You have to bear that in mind and allow for it. Go on any non-games software product forum and you'll see an immense list of problems that people are having; despite which, most people are using the product quite happily without any problems.

Forge of Freedom seems to work well as a program, and that says a lot for Eric's programming skills. It already seems to be keeping a lot of players happy. From my point of view, the game as initially released could do with some tweaking, but Western Civilization seems ready to oblige, so it still seems a good buy for anyone interested in the subject.
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RE: history or not history, that is the question

Post by walkerd »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
One thing I will regret is if the comments here make folks hold off because they believe the game is ahistorical. The only result that will create is a bad one for everyone. In its current form, all you need do is adjust a few of the many provided settings to get a game that is at least as historical as any previous ACW computer grand strategy game around. We're responding to the desire for a scenario that starts with everything exactly as it was, with no need for settings adjustment and have made a number of other changes to also increase the historical accuracy.

I have to admit it is posts in this forum that has made me put this game on hold. I fully understand the need to adjust the setting, although I would have made the defult the "historical" setting.

The other issue is the "apparent" lop sided battle results. The problem is there is no way to know what the results mean. Is the mass of casualties from pursuit? Is there major leadership issues? Is there some form of staff issues? Equipment? Training? Morale?

What ever the case it looks bad.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
FoF remains, from its initial release, historical and fun - with the level of historicity depending largely on how you adjust the optional settings. The upcoming update will improve things in a variety of areas, from historical accuracy to playability and game balance based on customer feedback. Western Civilization Software are among the most open-minded and community-friendly developers I've worked with and they are being very responsive to the early feedback.

I am waiting for the new scenario and new patch and some feed back. I think the design team have been fantastic listening to feed back. Completely agree and must say it the reason I keep looking in here. I expect the game to develop into what I am looking for, or at least the flexability to become so.

I am a little bit on the time poor side but am looking at this being the second wargame I intend to play this life time (as opposed to those ones that last months).
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