AI for MWiF - France

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees

Steve's AI outline mentioned the important cities for the French Army to consider, but I think they should think more about the line of the Dyle river than the cities in particular. And leave all coastal hexes to the BEF for starters.

It also posits never aligning a country to France. I would align Yugoslavia to France in the case of a 1939 or early 1940 Axis attack, as the French will be more likely to be able to pick a land impulse and give the Yugoslav pieces a chance to move some. I guess if Yugo wasn't conquered it could end up a Vichy minor but I don't think that would be a completely bad thing for the Allies. Once Free France is established they make a good controller of any minor countries the Axis might still attack as they will have more action limits to work with.

Someone mentioned that France can send four corps across the border with Germany and possibly aligning Yugo to the Allies. This could be a sucker move by the Germans to allow this _IF_ Russia has already demanded Bessarabia early.

Oh and as for picking a Free French home country, aside from the fun of a lucky roll on Indo-China, Senegal if available is the number one choice as the most Build Points can land there. Syria is good for those reasons too but this will be way expensive in Convoy Points. To save Convoy Points any Free French colony in the Americas, depending on how those look (cities? major ports?) on the new map. The priorities are simple ... how much Lend-Lease can land, and how far from the USA. I also wouldn't select their capital in anything except a port (so not Cameroons), again depending on how the new map of Africa works out for that.

The Africa maps are done. See the first page of the Africa Map thread (second page of the MWIF threads).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees

Putting the Free French Home Country in Indo-China is great fun. An immediate thorn in the Japanese side ... a major port on the South China sea zone in Allied hands is something the Japanese AI (and human players) should never tolerate. Especially a major port that is a SUPPLY SOURCE for the US and CW. The Japanese are quickly on the horns of a dilemna ... if they move to take Free Vietnam the US jumps in the war right quick. If they don't the CW can easily send all Indian and Australian production (and maybe some Chinese, especially if the Russian bear has decided to come over and magnify the Japanese headaches) as Lend-Lease over that way and the Japanese are soon looking at new, beefy French INF and GARR units, and long-range FTR of cutting-edge American design parked right on their sensitive sea zone. Without the Oil option Indo-China is even more dangerous for the Japanese. Plus Hanoi is not simple to take, the Chinese probably still hold the northern flank and south of it is a mountain hex that only gains you a river hexside on Hanoi itself. Meanwhile Japan also needs to take Saigon but that too is a supply source and if you commit to attacking that there is less available for Hanoi. Add Saigon and Hanoi to the list of Manila, Singapore, and Batavia and the Japanese can be bogged down for a long time. Yes, I would take Indo-China as their Home Country whenever I can, the only exception is if things are looking really really bad for the CW and they won't be able to spare a few build points for the Free French.

Well, you're right, but... :
(1) I learned that nothing resist the might of the IJA & IJN on the coasts (especially in 41-42 when the Wallies can't interfer). So the French will be toasted, whatever they build. The time that Japan will lose on the French here, will be regained next, when they will battle the British and the US, see (2).
(2) Hence, all that CW production that you say they will lend to the French will be a loss of BP, and a lack of CW build war material, that will miss them later.
(3) Also, If France is conquered a second time, it is bad for her, as here future Force pool will be again halved, and her current force pool disappearing. This will make Free France completely useless from then on.

So I agree that there is potential in putting the French Home Country in Indochina, in the short run, but in the long run I think this is a complete waste.
The new Home Country of Free France should be placed in a country where it won't be conquered a second time, and where it can "start back" in the offensive. Not simply to be a shard in the side.

French troops & planes are very important in Europe in 44-45, and doing this pretty much garantees that there won't be enough.

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So I agree that there is potential in putting the French Home Country in Indochina, in the short run, but in the long run I think this is a complete waste.
The new Home Country of Free France should be placed in a country where it won't be conquered a second time, and where it can "start back" in the offensive. Not simply to be a shard in the side.

French troops & planes are very important in Europe in 44-45, and doing this pretty much garantees that there won't be enough.

I couldnt agree more ! - the most aggressive I have ever been with choosing FF homenation was to set it up in Syria in one case, for the nice primary supplysource for the brits to use *g* ...and Marocco ....but in 19/20 games FF ends up in either Equatorial Afrika or Senegal ....

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

ORIGINAL: Froonp
So I agree that there is potential in putting the French Home Country in Indochina, in the short run, but in the long run I think this is a complete waste.
The new Home Country of Free France should be placed in a country where it won't be conquered a second time, and where it can "start back" in the offensive. Not simply to be a shard in the side.

French troops & planes are very important in Europe in 44-45, and doing this pretty much garantees that there won't be enough.

I couldnt agree more ! - the most aggressive I have ever been with choosing FF homenation was to set it up in Syria in one case, for the nice primary supplysource for the brits to use *g* ...and Marocco ....but in 19/20 games FF ends up in either Equatorial Afrika or Senegal ....

From this discussion I am thinking of making Syria and Indo-China a possible home country for France, but with very low probability ( < 5%).

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

ORIGINAL: Froonp
So I agree that there is potential in putting the French Home Country in Indochina, in the short run, but in the long run I think this is a complete waste.
The new Home Country of Free France should be placed in a country where it won't be conquered a second time, and where it can "start back" in the offensive. Not simply to be a shard in the side.

French troops & planes are very important in Europe in 44-45, and doing this pretty much garantees that there won't be enough.

I couldnt agree more ! - the most aggressive I have ever been with choosing FF homenation was to set it up in Syria in one case, for the nice primary supplysource for the brits to use *g* ...and Marocco ....but in 19/20 games FF ends up in either Equatorial Afrika or Senegal ....

From this discussion I am thinking of making Syria and Indo-China a possible home country for France, but with very low probability ( < 5%).

Personally, I would like to see a slightly higher probability (say 8- 10%) that the AI will try gambits like the Indo-China one that could really throw an inexperienced opponent for a loop. It should be something that you encounter once every ten or twelve games, not every twenty.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: CBoehm


I couldnt agree more ! - the most aggressive I have ever been with choosing FF homenation was to set it up in Syria in one case, for the nice primary supplysource for the brits to use *g* ...and Marocco ....but in 19/20 games FF ends up in either Equatorial Afrika or Senegal ....

From this discussion I am thinking of making Syria and Indo-China a possible home country for France, but with very low probability ( < 5%).

Personally, I would like to see a slightly higher probability (say 8- 10%) that the AI will try gambits like the Indo-China one that could really throw an inexperienced opponent for a loop. It should be something that you encounter once every ten or twelve games, not every twenty.

How about 3% for IndoChina and 6% for Syria (assuming they are available).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
How about 3% for IndoChina and 6% for Syria (assuming they are available).

Syria is really not a good option. It is quite unreachable for the Allies LL, and the Axis will conquer it easily. It is not worse that Indochina, but close to. Except the supply source for the CW units, it serves absolutely no goal. And if playing with Oil, the CW will also need oil for reorg, so this is even more useless.

Morocco is better, even if not a primary choice for me, by far.

The best choice is Senegal, but it has small chances of being Free France, so the next best choice is Gabon.

[Froonp]

Oh, and by the way, the Vichy rules were one domain of the rules that were nearly not implemented in CWiF, everything needs to be done.

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Syria is really not a good option. It is quite unreachable for the Allies LL, and the Axis will conquer it easily. It is not worse that Indochina, but close to. Except the supply source for the CW units, it serves absolutely no goal. And if playing with Oil, the CW will also need oil for reorg, so this is even more useless.

Morocco is better, even if not a primary choice for me, by far.

The best choice is Senegal, but it has small chances of being Free France, so the next best choice is Gabon.

Syria is not bad if the allies dare to make a bet that Ge is going for USSR (based on builds etc.) ...Syria gives a nice supply source in the eastern end of the MED ...provided Suez is held oil can be traced unlimited through africa ...and assuming USSR has taken out Persia ...oil could also be traced through Persia and USSR or to Burma ...

Indochina is IMO impossible to hold ...could perhaps be attempted ONLY if coordinated with a US-CW JP first strategy but otherwise is a sure loss ...but AFAI recall it has been stated that no overall allied or axis AI will be implemented to ensure coordinated action between the allies ?? or am I mistaken ...If this is correct Im sorry to say so but I just cannot ever see the allies really have a good chance ...there just has to be a coordinated allied strategy on whether or not to go for Ge or JP first ...the allies just cannot fight effectively on the offence in both Europe and the Pacific in 42-43 they neither have the strength or the impulses to really be effective in both theaters until 44 when the US has adaquete strength and chits to do supercombineds...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Syria is really not a good option. It is quite unreachable for the Allies LL, and the Axis will conquer it easily. It is not worse that Indochina, but close to. Except the supply source for the CW units, it serves absolutely no goal. And if playing with Oil, the CW will also need oil for reorg, so this is even more useless.

Morocco is better, even if not a primary choice for me, by far.

The best choice is Senegal, but it has small chances of being Free France, so the next best choice is Gabon.

Syria is not bad if the allies dare to make a bet that Ge is going for USSR (based on builds etc.) ...Syria gives a nice supply source in the eastern end of the MED ...provided Suez is held oil can be traced unlimited through africa ...and assuming USSR has taken out Persia ...oil could also be traced through Persia and USSR or to Burma ...

Indochina is IMO impossible to hold ...could perhaps be attempted ONLY if coordinated with a US-CW JP first strategy but otherwise is a sure loss ...but AFAI recall it has been stated that no overall allied or axis AI will be implemented to ensure coordinated action between the allies ?? or am I mistaken ...If this is correct Im sorry to say so but I just cannot ever see the allies really have a good chance ...there just has to be a coordinated allied strategy on whether or not to go for Ge or JP first ...the allies just cannot fight effectively on the offence in both Europe and the Pacific in 42-43 they neither have the strength or the impulses to really be effective in both theaters until 44 when the US has adaquete strength and chits to do supercombineds...

There will not be one consolidated AIO, but rather one for each major power. Coordination will be loose, though I expect France to follow the CW's lead and Italy to follow Germany's lead. The relationship between the USSR, CW, and USA strategically will depend. In a very real sense, these major powers are reactive early in the game. I expect their strategic plans to have crucial branching decisions that depend on how the war is going.

My reasons for this decision are varied. To some degree I think that a diffusion of decision makers is stronger than a single unified decision maker because the risk of one misguided viewpoint sinking the ship is lessened.

================================

Does anyone have some detailed suggestions on builds for France? If I can fill in that missing piece, I'll look into pseudo-encoding France's strategic plan to see how it will be used by the other AIO decision makers (e.g., Foreign Liaison and Manufaturing Council). What I want to do is get one of these fleshed out a little and then look into doing the same for China. Notice that I am starting with the easiest first. The shallow end of the pool, to get my feet wet with how all this will hang together.

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Does anyone have some detailed suggestions on builds for France? If I can fill in that missing piece, I'll look into pseudo-encoding France's strategic plan to see how it will be used by the other AIO decision makers (e.g., Foreign Liaison and Manufaturing Council). What I want to do is get one of these fleshed out a little and then look into doing the same for China. Notice that I am starting with the easiest first. The shallow end of the pool, to get my feet wet with how all this will hang together.[/color][/b]

Early build for France:

"incl. blitzbonus"
1939 (assuming no early Ge attack - otherwise Mil and Inf)
S/O Mech ...then Mil or a ATgun if one avail.
N/D Mil, Mech-d ...then more Mil or pilot and/or fighter depending on inf-gearing

1940
J/F Gar, Inf ...then fighter if more bp avail.
M/A Mil ...rest LL to CW
M/J Mil or inf, gar (Mil has the added benefit that these are removed in case of Vichy installation, so they, and RES, dont contribute to the Vichy garrison) ...Normally I would try to LL 5 bp or so to CW and build with the rest ...
J/A (assuming France is close to collapse) LL 5-8 bp to CW ...build Mil for rest.

"Excl. Blitz bonus"
S/O 39: HQ ...then MIL and pilots
N/D+: Inf, Mil, Fighters ...guns ...ART mostly usefull if NOT playing with fractional odds.



Free France
try to build 1-3 good INF...then Fighters & pilots. If playing with Amphrule then try to either build or breakdown to inf-d and mtn-d for invasion purposes, since this is a real addition to CWs invasion capability in 41-42.

- In my own games I have actually come think this is so important that I make it a priority to "rescue" these divs by transporting these divs to New Caladonia already from S/O 39, usually making a stopover in Burma or Malaya to help with garrison vs. partisans until danger looks immenent.

Later on (42+) trying to lay down a FF TRN or Amph can be a good idea too. If 3 factor HQI is available this can be a good investment too since it allows the FF to do a airimpulse and reorg AC. De Gaulle is IMO only really worth the cost if NOT playing with allied combat friction.
........
Quite often it pays to LL a few bps from CW to France in N/D 39 and J/F 40 ...then LL back to CW the following turns - this has often nedded me a transfer of 10-15 bps to CW before France is conquered/Vichy-installed ...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thanks. I'll try to formalize your suggestions into something the AIO can process.

[trees]

going back to Indo-China, the decision of FF being there will only come up in 20% of games to start with. And yes it is true that the Japanese will get it eventually, but it will not be easy, and you will cut into their plans to hurt you somewhere else, and that's what Allied strategy is all about, I don't think BPs spent delaying the Axis and making them risk casualties are BP's wasted. The 7-1 GARR and 6-1 GARR and the 5-2 ART (Indo-China can receive a lot of Lend-Lease at once, 5 BPs a turn I think; if China is already stalemated this is not too difficult), all permanently in supply and turning face-up at the end of each turn can keep the Japanese busy for a while and the Japanese aren't too good at flipping enemy units. Saigon is an even better home for the White Print CW GARR units than Singapore as until Hanoi falls they stay in supply and after Hanoi falls you only lose 4 BP while the Japanese lose another turn dealing with that. And yes it is true that the French force pool at the time disappears, but since you can only place one Free French unit per turn [I wouldn't enjoy programming Free French production], and they get more than six new counters every year (I am assuming the pieces from the Leaders in Flames counter sheet are in use), there will still be plenty of Free French pieces to use in Europe later on. You can always hide the important ones (you might have at least a year to build them) for your favorite Free French tricks in other parts of the Free French empire until the Home Country moves back to boring old Africa. One can also wait to add the many American Lend-Lease planes to the French Force Pool until after the big move if you prefer a vigorous Free French air force strategy. Of course this fun gambit works great with leaving McArthur in Manila (a jungle hex nowadays) too but some people still pull him out as if the US can't afford 5 Build Points. If either Manilla or Hanoi take the Japanese more than one turn to take the North Monsoon storm may soon clamp down on them further wrecking whatever schedule they have, you have just made the Japanese fight where you want them too, not where they want. I don't think Indo-China is a horrible choice that should be automatically rejected at all.

[trees]

oh forgot another of my reasons ... in 1940 and 41 the CW can't always afford to start building the Free French anyway, because if their convoy lines are under pressure they may have to prioritize available CPs in the Atlantic to keep the UK economy going. So maybe there isn't a Free French unit appearing each turn early on. India>Indo-China and Australia>Indo-China and Kunming>Hanoi is much more efficient (and safe from Axis attacks) than UK>Gabon. I like my 8 BPs spent in Hanoi, They really are 8 BPs spent on the defense of Australia and India. If the CW can afford a Free French unit per turn one can always take them out of Indo-China for use later, and future (1943, 44) force pool additions aren't lost to the Free French, unless, oops, I'm playing the rules wrong again. (Wouldn't be the first time).



I think French production choices are all made on the first turn. If you build the MECH, INF Gearing starts out at 1 in N/D and you'll never keep all your MIL in play when you need them. So then you want to build the MECH in N/D instead so you can have a higher INF gearing and almost immediately these decisions are made by ringing up the Finance Minister in London.

[trees]

I'll expand a little bit on what I meant about Sep/Oct 39 production...the French only have 5 BP to work with, maximum, they can't receive any loans that turn because they are not an active Major Power in the Lending phase. Whatever decision they make here will about fix their gearing limits for the rest of their short time in the game. [I am assuming the use of the 2d10 table with blitz bonuses, I doubt I'll ever play any other way].This also somewhat depends on what guns they draw. If there is still an AT to build, I like to build it and a MIL in S/O, and then a MECH and 2 MIL in N/D with a 4 BP loan from the CW. Or add a pilot with a 6 BP loan. Then in J/F build the new INF, GARR, and another MIL (four now with the new Senegal MIL)and (hopefully) one of the brand new FTR-2's (I'd put it in on the board rather than the FTR-3 from the spiral, or use it to put a shot-down pilot in). This sets everything up to rebuild all the MIL in Mar/Apr if the weather was good that turn and the MIL were used to take losses. CBoehm's suggestion of having the French send out their BPs to the CW is excellent play, I would start doing this in May/Jun. Except for MIL they shouldn't build anything that can't arrive by Jul/Aug at the latest, it will most likely become a Vichy unit if appearing later. Germany gets the biggest decision as to when Vichy might appear when they decide whether or not to use Offensive Chits to achieve this, although weather rolls in Mar/Apr and May/Jun play a big part in this. If there are no Anti-Tank guns to build my decision process gets more complicated but still revolves around the Infantry gearing. An AA gun or ART is good but then you can't build anything else on the first turn...so maybe a Pilot and a MIL and save a BP in that case.

If facing a France first German strategy I'd probably build all MIL in Sep/Oct in case Nov/Dec has good weather. If Sep/Oct ended with bad weather pluses (likely) maybe I'd stick with my regular build schedule.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees
I'll expand a little bit on what I meant about Sep/Oct 39 production...the French only have 5 BP to work with, maximum, they can't receive any loans that turn because they are not an active Major Power in the Lending phase. Whatever decision they make here will about fix their gearing limits for the rest of their short time in the game. [I am assuming the use of the 2d10 table with blitz bonuses, I doubt I'll ever play any other way].This also somewhat depends on what guns they draw. If there is still an AT to build, I like to build it and a MIL in S/O, and then a MECH and 2 MIL in N/D with a 4 BP loan from the CW. Or add a pilot with a 6 BP loan. Then in J/F build the new INF, GARR, and another MIL (four now with the new Senegal MIL)and (hopefully) one of the brand new FTR-2's (I'd put it in on the board rather than the FTR-3 from the spiral, or use it to put a shot-down pilot in). This sets everything up to rebuild all the MIL in Mar/Apr if the weather was good that turn and the MIL were used to take losses. CBoehm's suggestion of having the French send out their BPs to the CW is excellent play, I would start doing this in May/Jun. Except for MIL they shouldn't build anything that can't arrive by Jul/Aug at the latest, it will most likely become a Vichy unit if appearing later. Germany gets the biggest decision as to when Vichy might appear when they decide whether or not to use Offensive Chits to achieve this, although weather rolls in Mar/Apr and May/Jun play a big part in this. If there are no Anti-Tank guns to build my decision process gets more complicated but still revolves around the Infantry gearing. An AA gun or ART is good but then you can't build anything else on the first turn...so maybe a Pilot and a MIL and save a BP in that case.

If facing a France first German strategy I'd probably build all MIL in Sep/Oct in case Nov/Dec has good weather. If Sep/Oct ended with bad weather pluses (likely) maybe I'd stick with my regular build schedule.

Ok. But I do not see how France gets 5 BP in Sep/Oct. Is the CW convoying the French Indo-China resource to Marseilles?

There are 6 resources in Metropolitan France and the 1 Algerian resource can be brought in by rail (through Spain). 3 convoys can bring the 1 Senegal resource up to Brest. With 8 resources delivered, that only leaves 4 French convoys remaining to bring in the 2 remaining Pacific resources.

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: trees
I'll expand a little bit on what I meant about Sep/Oct 39 production...the French only have 5 BP to work with, maximum, they can't receive any loans that turn because they are not an active Major Power in the Lending phase. Whatever decision they make here will about fix their gearing limits for the rest of their short time in the game. [I am assuming the use of the 2d10 table with blitz bonuses, I doubt I'll ever play any other way].This also somewhat depends on what guns they draw. If there is still an AT to build, I like to build it and a MIL in S/O, and then a MECH and 2 MIL in N/D with a 4 BP loan from the CW. Or add a pilot with a 6 BP loan. Then in J/F build the new INF, GARR, and another MIL (four now with the new Senegal MIL)and (hopefully) one of the brand new FTR-2's (I'd put it in on the board rather than the FTR-3 from the spiral, or use it to put a shot-down pilot in). This sets everything up to rebuild all the MIL in Mar/Apr if the weather was good that turn and the MIL were used to take losses. CBoehm's suggestion of having the French send out their BPs to the CW is excellent play, I would start doing this in May/Jun. Except for MIL they shouldn't build anything that can't arrive by Jul/Aug at the latest, it will most likely become a Vichy unit if appearing later. Germany gets the biggest decision as to when Vichy might appear when they decide whether or not to use Offensive Chits to achieve this, although weather rolls in Mar/Apr and May/Jun play a big part in this. If there are no Anti-Tank guns to build my decision process gets more complicated but still revolves around the Infantry gearing. An AA gun or ART is good but then you can't build anything else on the first turn...so maybe a Pilot and a MIL and save a BP in that case.

If facing a France first German strategy I'd probably build all MIL in Sep/Oct in case Nov/Dec has good weather. If Sep/Oct ended with bad weather pluses (likely) maybe I'd stick with my regular build schedule.

Ok. But I do not see how France gets 5 BP in Sep/Oct. Is the CW convoying the French Indo-China resource to Marseilles?

There are 6 resources in Metropolitan France and the 1 Algerian resource can be brought in by rail (through Spain). 3 convoys can bring the 1 Senegal resource up to Brest. With 8 resources delivered, that only leaves 4 French convoys remaining to bring in the 2 remaining Pacific resources.

It takes only 2 convoys to get the Senegal resource into France, it gets railed through Spain.

Lars

[trees]

and yes, assuming the CW come through and bring the French Indo-China resource home, and hopefully they draw the TERRitorial for Indo-China, or that number doesn't come up on the PARTisan roll.

and actually I put half of the French CP in the Bay of Biscay and the rest in the North Atlantic as the front-line of the CW CP network, taking them as the losses if the Axis make a lucky naval sortie of some type in the first winter of the war, what war?

or if the CW wants some in the Med use the French ones.

[Incy]

I usually place 1-2 french cp as dedicated losstakers in any seasone at risk. That usually means 2 for the med and 5+ for the atlantic (i try to cover hexes threathened by italian subs too). This helps the survivability of the british CP a lot, and also makes either ally less vulnerable to an italian dow on just one of france/CW

Incy

[Froonp]

Ok. But I do not see how France gets 5 BP in Sep/Oct. Is the CW convoying the French Indo-China resource to Marseilles?

There are 6 resources in Metropolitan France and the 1 Algerian resource can be brought in by rail (through Spain). 3 convoys can bring the 1 Senegal resource up to Brest. With 8 resources delivered, that only leaves 4 French convoys remaining to bring in the 2 remaining Pacific resources.

There is also the Iraq Oil, that can be brought back to Marseilles, and used for production. That makes 9 PP, who make 5 BP with a PM of 0.5.