Indestructable Matildas?

[HansBolter]

Has anyone succeeded in destroying a Matilda unit with paratroopers?

Those pesky Matildas in the Maleme scenario seem completely indestructable.

I realize that the "door knockers" (37mm PAK) don't stand a chance against them, but close assaults by paratroopers ought to be capable of knocking them out. Air strikes ought to have at least a chance of knocking them out.

The most I am ever able to get them to do is run away.



p.s. Did the Falschirmjager not adopt the 28mm tapered bore, light weight carriage PAK until after the time period depicted in the game and is that why they are equipped with 37mm Paks?

[Robin le guetteur]

Don't worry, each time I play this scenario, I lost half of my Matilda units.
It's is possible to destruct them, but I must recognize that they are very strong. And It's the only luck of the allied in this scenario, when they keep the hill 107 against the "bloody bad guys"... [8|]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

p.s. Did the Falschirmjager not adopt the 28mm tapered bore, light weight carriage PAK until after the time period depicted in the game and is that why they are equipped with 37mm Paks?

The Fallschirmjäger-units on Crete were using special guns, called "leichtes Geschütz" ("light gun", in terms of reduced weight, not calibre !!!) LG40, with a calibre of 7.5 cm (range: 3 miles).

The game features 3.7 cm PaKs, maybe due to pre-war data (surely outdated by 1941) at hand, or because LGs didn't make it into the retail game. Anyways, these PaKs seem to substitute the LGs.

A downside, since FJ units could deliver way more punch, also, these LGs were extremely light (weight: 320 pounds only) and easy to handle, as they didn't have to be towed. Furthermore, these units could even cross the roughest terrain, just like every other inf unit, for sure.

Some PaKs may have been deployed by glider units later on, along with the mountain units, I doubt that the FJs would have traded their 75 mm LGs for some weak 37mm PaKs, though. [:D]

The LG40: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Recoi ... chan-1.jpg

You might want to read the "Weapons" section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete

Also, the amount of certain weapons (MP40 and MG34) appear a bit low, for FJ units at least. Around 25% of the paras carried MP40 SMGs (not stored/carried in those canisters, btw, unlike the rifles), often in addition to their rifles(!), and many accounts state that almost every "Zug" (platoon) was equipped with one MG34 (the bipod version).
IIRC, in the game, there are FJ coys equipped with like 2-4 MG34 only, which doesn't look right. Like with current US platoons (afaik), most german FJ platoons had this kind of heavy section in order to provide suppressing fire.

G out.

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

The Fallschirmjäger-units on Crete were using special guns, called "leichtes Geschütz" ("light gun", in terms of reduced weight, not calibre !!!) LG40, with a calibre of 7.5 cm (range: 3 miles).

The game features 3.7 cm PaKs, maybe due to pre-war data (surely outdated by 1941) at hand, or because LGs didn't make it into the retail game. Anyways, these PaKs seem to substitute the LGs.

If you look a bit harder I think you'll be pleased [8D]

The LG40 appears in several units (number of guns at full strength in parentheses):
15th MG Coy IV Bn LLSt Regt (2)
1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th MG Coys Fallsch MG Bn 7 (2 each company)
1st and 2nd Inf Gun Pl 13th Coy FJ Regt 2 (3 each platoon)

It does not appear in the AT elements because it wasn't used there. It was not an AT weapon, it was a piece of light field artillery, and was used as such. It did happen to have some AT capability (just barely capable of taking out a Matilda from the front) but was not fielded in that role. The AT elements of the FJ and LLSt troops used the Pak-36; the bulk of the artillery used the GebG-36 mountain gun.

I will note that the various sources I found were contradictory, so there was some judgement used to work out what was the most reliable information. That information led to the orbat you have in COTA.

Also, the amount of certain weapons (MP40 and MG34) appear a bit low, for FJ units at least. Around 25% of the paras carried MP40 SMGs (not stored/carried in those canisters, btw, unlike the rifles), often in addition to their rifles(!), and many accounts state that almost every "Zug" (platoon) was equipped with one MG34 (the bipod version).
IIRC, in the game, there are FJ coys equipped with like 2-4 MG34 only, which doesn't look right. Like with current US platoons (afaik), most german FJ platoons had this kind of heavy section in order to provide suppressing fire.

I think here as well that on closer examination of the game, you will be well pleased. The full-strength parachute infantry company equipment includes:

86 7.92mm Mauser KAR 98 rifle
29 9mm MP 40 SMG
2 7.92mm sMG 34 HMG
6 7.92mm lMG 34 LMG
3 5cm leGrW 36 lt mortar
3 7.92mm PzB 38 AT rifle

so we have not two machineguns but eight. The LLSt parachute companies are even more heavily equipped:

76 7.92mm Mauser KAR 98 rifle
29 9mm MP 40 SMG
18 7.92mm lMG 34 LMG
2 7.92mm sMG 34 HMG
3 5cm leGrW 36 lt mortar
3 7.92mm PzB 38 AT rifle
1 8cm sGrW 34 mortar

For a total of twenty machineguns in a single company. I certainly don't think we are short-changing the Green Devils here!

You might want to take a peek at the scenario editor, to get a feel for the units and equipment in the game. I think you'll be surprised at just how much there is in there!

Keep on playing, keep on having fun [:)]

Regards
Steve

[HansBolter]

Guys I'm not talking about the 75mm recoiless gun used in place of the heavy infantry divisions 75mm field gun. I noticed that the machine gun companies include some of these weapons which sortof makes the machine gun companies into "heavy weapons" companies that lack the mortars most heavy weapons companies include. The Germans also had either a 105mm or 150mm version of the recoiless gun, I can remember which right now and am work without access to my resources.

I am talking about the lightweight carriage antitank gun they used which was a 28mm tapered bore weapon. I build military models and have both the 75mm recoiless infantry gun and the 28mm tapered bore antitank gun in my collection at home. Here is an image of the gun I am referring to:

[HansBolter]

Here is an image of the 75mm recoiless gun:

[GoodGuy]

Thank you for your hints!

I still disagree.

ORIGINAL: Golf33

The LG40 appears in several units (number of guns at full strength in parentheses):
15th MG Coy IV Bn LLSt Regt (2)
1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th MG Coys Fallsch MG Bn 7 (2 each company)
1st and 2nd Inf Gun Pl 13th Coy FJ Regt 2 (3 each platoon)

It does not appear in the AT elements because it wasn't used there. It was not an AT weapon, it was a piece of light field artillery, and was used as such. It did happen to have some AT capability (just barely capable of taking out a Matilda from the front) but was not fielded in that role.

I've read sources which indicate that LGs have used to a larger extent.
The LG40s (renamed back to "LG1", the very first series, later on) were initially designed as light-weight inf gun, right.
But, according to the german sources I've read, additional hollow charge-projectiles were introduced for service in an additional AT role, after the LGs had been issued to the FJs in 1940. So they covered a dual role very well, and could have knocked out a Matilda most likely (most Allied tanks on Crete suffered serious break downs, had been abandoned, or just retreated, though, so most had barely enemy contact, aside from one or 2 serious fire fights [afaik], anyways, so I doubt that they (LGs) found a target, AT-wise [:)]).

Also, some german sources indicate that 3rd Bty of 7th Fallschirmjäger Arty-Abteilung was equipped with LGs exclusively (in the scenario this unit is a "no show", which is correct, since it was scheduled for seaborne entry).

That said, I came to the conclusion that more than those 16 LGs (used by those 7 units you mentioned) had been used (around 190 were issued to the FJs), especially if you're keeping in mind the weight + AT (hollow explosive charge) ammo.
I did have a hard time finding any evidence of LGs in the game, so ty for your hint.

I agree that there are contradictory statements, german books I've read in the 80s or 90s wouldn't leave me in doubt regarding the dual role, though.

the bulk of the artillery used the GebG-36 mountain gun.

No doubt. I've even seen various pictures of mountain guns being airdropped in several pieces (most likely courtesy of 1st and 2nd arty btys --> 7th FJ Arty-Abteilung).
I was referring to an additional AT role of the LGs and that they had been used to a larger extent in terms of being used apart from any Arty-Abteilung or (according to your list) Hvy weapon/MG Coys.

I'm confused now regarding the PaKs. In the Maleme mission are PzJg units, airdropped obviously. Just wonder how Ju52 planes could have dropped these bastards (size/weight)? Never heard of a PaK 36 that could be disassembled, unlike the mountain guns.

I think here as well that on closer examination of the game, you will be well pleased....
........For a total of twenty machineguns in a single company. I certainly don't think we are short-changing the Green Devils here!

My view might have been clouded, regarding the amount of LMGs, due to my sore eyes and tired brain, I guess.

I got the impression that there aren't enough. During a game, I spotted Coys with 6 "LMG" MG34, and was surprised that I even saw coys with 2-4.
A closer look in the SM revealed the minimum is 6, and I could not verify my observation regarding "2-4", and I guess I have browsed most of the vital units. Well, these must have been coys that had lost equipment during the battle.

Nevertheless, I tried to express, according to my sources, that these numbers are still a bit too low. Some german books I've read a few years ago stated that every 8th to 12th FJ soldier participating in the operation received an MG34.
While the numbers you've posted truly don't look like the stats of a darn rifle company [8D], I am convinced that there should be around 14-20 LMG MG34s for the bulk of the FJs, and not only for those units like the SturmRgt.

Regarding MP40s, given - it's a minor thingy, but I've read that 25% had been equipped with MP38/40s. So, a Coy with 159 personnel, not deducting COs or NCOs as they had been issued MP40s first, should have received around 39 MP40s, well that's the theory. I've even read personal diaries stating that several Coys could issue MPs to up to 50% of their paras, mostly in addition to their KAR 98 rifle.

Well, some of these details regarding equipment may still be subject to discussion in one or another way, dunno, but I got to these conclusions.

[Rooster]

MGs and LGs wouldn't do much to a Matilda would they? Without sufficient AT capability, it should be quite tough to take them out. 
 
I didn't think close-in tank destruction didn't hit its peak until mid-way throught the east front campaign.

[GoodGuy]

*whisper* ....hollow charge!

I suck at physics, but If I'm not mistaken, the LGs could be seen as forerunner of the Panzerfaust series (regarding penetration and general principle, if equipped with hollow charges), and I'm well aware of the fact that they were introduced as inf gun in 1940, initially. The main principle used by the LGs had been used and optimized in the more effective Panzerfaust series, which could penetrate armour up to 210mm later on (afaik).

I'm sure that LGs really provided more than "close-in" range, as their regular IG shells traveled up to 3 miles.

The LGs had been deployed massively in North Africa later on.

[HansBolter]

Well they did finally surrender on the morning of day 4 after spending 3 days retreating around a 4 square kilometer area to the east of the airfield. I kept up constant harrasment on them with anti-tank companies and one of the independent infantry companies. There were only 2 tanks in the unit when it surrendered and it started with 3, so I must have managed to kill off at least one tank.....or was it lost to mechanical breakdown from all of the retreating?

[Golf33]

Mechanical breakdown is not modelled. If there was a tank missing, it either surrendered or you killed it.

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Well they did finally surrender on the morning of day 4 after spending 3 days retreating around a 4 square kilometer area to the east of the airfield. I kept up constant harrasment on them with anti-tank companies and one of the independent infantry companies. There were only 2 tanks in the unit when it surrendered and it started with 3, so I must have managed to kill off at least one tank.....or was it lost to mechanical breakdown from all of the retreating?

Did the Brittish tanks actually acomplish anything substantial on Crete IRL? I have only read about silly mistakes and poor tactics, often with deadly outcomes.

[cabron66]

ORIGINAL: Golf33

Mechanical breakdown is not modelled. If there was a tank missing, it either surrendered or you killed it.

It's not?

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: cabron66

ORIGINAL: Golf33

Mechanical breakdown is not modelled. If there was a tank missing, it either surrendered or you killed it.

It's not?

Hi,

I believe that particular functionality is slated for the North African release....

Rob.

[Arjuna]

Yep that's right.

[cabron66]

North Africans get all the cool stuff.

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader

ORIGINAL: cabron66

ORIGINAL: Golf33

Mechanical breakdown is not modelled. If there was a tank missing, it either surrendered or you killed it.

It's not?

I believe that particular functionality is slated for the North African release....

Rob.

North Africa?! Is that the next-next theatre of the series? [&:]

[HansBolter]

Yea, is NA before or after Bulge....cause those Tiger IIs in the bulge were breakdown nightmares.

[Arjuna]

Desert Crusade is after BFTB.

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Desert Crusade is after BFTB.

Is there any plans making some game cover some partition of eastern front? I'm big fan of eastern front and biggest armoured combats of WW 2 were there.