PT boats: an historical survey

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

Post Reply
AmiralLaurent
Posts: 3351
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: Near Paris, France

PT boats: an historical survey

Post by AmiralLaurent »

In the AAR section, several threads are actually cursing PT and to avoid starting a flame war there, I will post here a thread about them:

First, here is the historical record of US PT in the Pacific (AFAIK Dutch PT achieved nothing and were either lost or captured when the DEI fell). This record is extracted from the USN official chronology and the day were PT were damaged either by enemy action or not are not included.

26 December 1941
Motor torpedo boat PT-33, damaged by grounding on 24 December five miles northwest of Cape Santiago, Luzon, 13°46'N, 120°40'E, is burned to prevent capture.
(1 op loss, no kill)

20 January 1942
Motor torpedo boat PT-31, damaged by grounding the day before, is burned by crew to prevent capture, 14°45'N, 120°13'E.
(2 op losses, no kill)

9 April 1942
Motor torpedo boats PT-34 and PT-41 engage Japanese light cruiser Kuma and torpedo boat Kiji in a running fight off Cape Tanon, the southern tip of Cebu, P.I.; Kuma is hit by a dud torpedo and machine gun fire. Later that same day, PT-34 is bombed and strafed by floatplanes from Japanese seaplane carrier Sanuki Maruand beached off Cauit Island, P.I., 10°16'N, 123°52'E. A second bombing and strafing attack by Sanuki Maru's planes destroys PT-34, which suffers two dead and three wounded from her six-man crew in the action.
(1 combat loss, 2 op losses, no kill)

12 April 1942
Motor torpedo boat PT-35, undergoing repairs on the marine railway at the Cebu Shipyard and Engineering Works, is destroyed by crew as Japanese capture Cebu, 10°18'N, 123°54'E.
(2 combat losses, 2 op losses, no kill)

15 April 1942
Last remaining motor torpedo boat in the Philippines, PT-41, her torpedoes expended and lacking gasoline to operate, is transferred to the Army to be moved overland to Lake Lanao. She is slated for service as a machine gun boat. The rapid Japanese advance across Mindanao, however, compels the Army to destroy PT-41 to prevent her capture.
(3 combat losses, 2 op losses, no kill)

12 October 1942
Motor torpedo boats PT-38, PT-46, PT-48 and PT-60 arrive at Tulagi, having been towed from Espiritu Santo to a point 300 miles south of that place by high speed minesweepers Southard (DMS-10) and Hovey (DMS-11).

14 October 1942
Motor torpedo boats PT-60, PT-38, PT-46, and PT-48 (Lieutenant Commander Alan R. Montgomery) engage Japanese surface force (Rear Admiral Kurita Takeo) comprising battleships Haruna and Kongo, light cruiser Isuzu, and seven destroyers bombarding Henderson Field, Guadalcanal. Destroyer Naganami turns back the motor torpedo boats; Japanese bombardment destroys 48 of 90 planes at the field, putting the facility temporarily out of action. PT-60 is damaged by grounding on coral reef off Guadalcanal.

25 October 1942
Second division of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Three, consisting of motor torpedo boats PT-37, PT-39, PT-45, and PT-61, arrives at Tulagi.

8 November 1942
Motor torpedo boats PT-61, PT-39, and PT-37 engage two Japanese destroyers south of Savo Island, Guadalcanal; PT-61 and PT-39 damaged and Mochizuki hit by a dud torpedo in the encounter.
(3 combat losses, 2 op losses, no kill)

8 December 1942
Motor torpedo boats PT-36, PT-37, PT-40, PT-43, PT-44, PT-48, PT-59, and PT-109 turn back eight Japanese destroyers (Captain Sato Torajiro) attempting to reinforce Guadalcanal.

9 December 1942
Motor torpedo boat PT-59 sinks Japanese submarine I-3, engaged in a resupply mission to Guadalcanal, three miles northeast of Kamimbo Bay, 09°12'S, 159°42'E.
(3 combat losses, 2 op losses, 1 kill (1 SS))

12 December 1942
Five motor torpedo boats attack 11 Japanese destroyers (Rear Admiral Tanaka Raizo) off Cape Esperance, Guadalcanal. Motor torpedo boats PT-37 and PT-40 sink Terutsuki, but Kawakaze and Suzukaze sink PT-44 off Savo Island, 09°10'S, 159°45'E.
(4 combat losses, 2 op losses, 2 kills (1 DD, 1 SS))

11 January 1943
Nine motor torpedo boats operating from Tulagi, directed to the scene by a PBY, attack Japanese Reinforcement Unit (Captain Koyanagi Tomiji), eight destroyers strong, off Cape Esperance, Guadalcanal; destroyer Hatsukaze is damaged by a torpedo. Motor torpedo boat PT-112 is sunk and PT-43 damaged by Japanese destroyer gunfire (09°15'S, 159°42'E). PT-43 was scuttled the next day.
(6 combat losses, 2 op losses, 2 kills (1 DD, 1 SS), 1 damage (1 DD))

14 January 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-28, previously damaged by storm on the 10th, is abandoned, Dora Harbor, Unimak Island, Aleutians.
(6 combat losses, 3 op losses, 2 kills (1 DD, 1 SS), 1 damage (1 DD))

1 February 1943
Two waves of aircraft from Henderson Field (TBFs, SBDs, F4Fs, and USAAF P-38s, P-39s, and P-40s) attack Japanese destroyer force (Rear Admiral Hashimoto Shintaro), en route to evacuate Japanese troops from Guadalcanal (Operation KE), damaging Makinami (Hashimoto's flagship). U.S. motor torpedo boats later attack the Japanese force, but in that action PT-111 and PT-37 are sunk by gunfire from destroyer Kawakaze; a Japanese floatplane sinks PT-123. Hashimoto's force extracts 4,935 soldiers.
(9 combat losses, 3 op losses, 2 kills (1 DD, 1 SS), 1 damage (1 DD))

3 March 1943
Battle of the Bismarck Sea continues as Allied aircraft renew the offensive with relentless low-level bombing and strafing runs against the luckless enemy convoy. Rear Admiral Kimura is wounded on board his flagship, destroyer Shirayuki. Destroyer Asashio is sunk by USAAF B-25s, 45 miles southeast of Finschafen, New Guinea, 07°15'S, 148°15'E; destroyers Arashio, Tokitsukaze, and Shirayuki are sunk by other aircraft (Arashio by USAAF B-17s), 55 miles southeast of Finschafen, 07°15'S, 148°30'E; supply ship Noshima, damaged by U.S. aircraft and collision with destroyer Arashio, sinks 50 miles southeast of Finschafen, 07°15'S, 148°30'E. Japanese army cargo ship Oigawa Maru, damaged by Allied aircraft, is sunk by motor torpedo boats PT-143 and PT-150, 06°58'S, 148°16'E; army cargo vessels Aiyo Maru, Shinai Maru, Taimei Maru, and Kembu Maru and transport Teiyo Maru are sunk by U.S. and Allied aircraft, east of New Guinea, 06°56'S, 148°08'E.
(9 combat losses, 3 op losses, 3 kills (1 DD, 1 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

5 March 1943
Battle of Bismarck Sea concludes, although attacks on survivors found on rafts and in landing barges ("grim and bloody work for which the crews had little stomach") continue over the ensuing days by Allied aircraft and U.S. motor torpedo boats. Failure of that operation, Japanese navy officials admit later, proves "the impossibility of surface transport in the Lae area." Of the sixteen ships which sail for Lae, all eight transports are sunk, as are four of the escorting destroyers. Motor torpedo boats PT-143 and PT-150, patrolling 25 miles northeast of Cape Ward Hunt, New Guinea, in the wake of the battle, encounter a Japanese submarine rescuing survivors of the engagement and force her to submerge.

17 March 1943
Motor torpedo boats PT-67 and PT-119 are destroyed by fire off eastern New Guinea, 09°02'S, 149°20'E.
(9 combat losses, 5 op losses, 3 kills (1 DD, 1 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

14 May 1943
Motor torpedo boats PT-150 and PT-152 sink Japanese submarine RO 102 in Vitiaz Strait, New Guinea, 06°55'S, 147°34'E.
(9 combat losses, 5 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

23 May 1943
Motor torpedo boats PT-165 and PT-173 are lost on board U.S. tanker Stanvac Manila when Japanese submarine I-17 torpedoes the tanker (which is transporting the boats) 100 miles south of Nouméa, New Caledonia, 23°45'S, 166°30'E.
(9 combat losses, 7 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

2 July 1943
Japanese naval and army aircraft bomb Rendova, Solomons; Japanese light cruiser Yubari and nine destroyers bombard the beachhead. Motor torpedo boats PT-156, PT-157, and PT-161 engage the enemy, but inflict no damage. Motor torpedo boats PT-153 and PT-158, damaged by grounding, Solomons, 08°20'S, 157°15'E, are beached and abandoned.
(9 combat losses, 9 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

20 July 1943
USAAF B-25s, unaware of friendly naval vessels in their patrol area, mistakenly sink motor torpedo boat PT-166 (08°15'S, 156°53'E) and damage PT-164 and PT-168 in Ferguson Passage, Solomons.
(9 combat losses, 10 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

1 August 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-117, damaged by dive bomber, Rendova Harbor, Lumbari Island, Solomons, 08°24'S, 157°19'E, is beached and abandoned; PT-164 is sunk by horizontal bomber, Rendova Harbor, 08°25'S, 157°20'E.
(11 combat losses, 10 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

2 August 1943
Motor torpedo boats continue to engage Japanese destroyers off Kolombongara (see 1 August 1943); motor torpedo boat PT-109 is rammed and sunk by Japanese destroyer Amagiri, Blackett Strait, Solomons, 08°03'S, 156°58'E. Amagiri is damaged in the collision.
(12 combat losses, 10 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

8 August 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-113, damaged by grounding, eastern New Guinea, 09°12'S, 146°29'E, is beached and abandoned.
(12 combat losses, 11 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

10 August 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-161, operating from Rendova, is damaged by Japanese floatplane off Gatere. Other motor torpedo boats engage Japanese craft (fishing boats) in Blackett Strait, sinking Suiko Maru.
(equivalent to a barge, not counted as a "kill" as barges kill are not reported in my source)

August 1943
6-8 PT damaged by Japanese aircraft

7 September 1943
Motor torpedo boats PT-118 and PT-172, damaged by grounding, Solomons area, 07°34'S, 165°35'E, are scuttled.
(12 combat losses, 13 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

17 September 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-136, damaged by grounding, eastern New Guinea area, 05°55'S 148°01'E, is scuttled.
(12 combat losses, 14 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

30 September 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-219 founders and sinks off Attu, Aleutians, sometime during September (exact date unspecified).
(12 combat losses, 15 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

1 October 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-68, damaged by grounding off Vincke Point, Huon Peninsula, eastern New Guinea, 05°56'S, 147°18'E, is scuttled by motor torpedo boat PT-191 to prevent capture.
(12 combat losses, 16 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

13 October 1943
Japanese planes attack four Lambu Lambu-based U.S. motor torpedo boats southwest of Choiseul; PT-boaters shoot down attacking Japanese floatplane, an event that proves "the greatest lift" to the sailors who tangle almost nightly (and heretofore largely unsuccessfully) with nocturnal enemy aircraft in that theater.
(included to show that the PT AA fire was not so great... at least once a week one PT was damaged by a Japanese plane, mostly floatplanes flying night patrols)

6 November 1943
Japanese torpedo planes attack infantry landing craft(gunboat) LCI(G)-70 and motor torpedo boat PT-167 as the U.S. ships retire from Cape Torokina to the Treasury Islands. Dud torpedoes damage both LCI(G)-70 and PT-167.
(chasing PT with torps, achieving a hit and all that for nothing...)

8 November 1943
Destroyers Anthony (DD-515) and Hudson (DD-475) accidentally engage motor torpedo boats PT-163, PT-169, and PT-170; fortunately, neither side suffers any damage in the mistaken encounter.

19 November 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-147, damaged by grounding, eastern New Guinea, 05°55'S, 147°20'E, is scuttled by crew.
(12 combat losses, 17 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

23 November 1943
Motor torpedo boat PT-322, damaged by grounding, eastern New Guinea, 06°09'S, 147°36'E, is scuttled by U.S. forces.
(12 combat losses, 18 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

14 December 1943
Faulty fuel pump ignites gasoline dump that in turn explodes ammunition dump; resultant fire destroys motor torpedo boat PT-239, Lambu Lambu Cove, Vella Lavella, Solomons, 07°42'S, 156°47'E.
(12 combat losses, 19 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

4 January 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-145, damaged by grounding off Mindiri, 05°34'S, 146°10'E, is scuttled by motor torpedo boat PT-370. The latter suffers damage during the attempt to tow PT-145 out of the area.
(12 combat losses, 20 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

26 January 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-110 is sunk by depth charge explosion following collision with motor torpedo boat PT-114, Ablingi Harbor, New Britain, 06°17'S, 150°09'E; PT-114 is damaged.
(12 combat losses, 21 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

11 February 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-279 is sunk in collision with PT-282, Solomons, 05°30'S, 154°15'E.
(12 combat losses, 22 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

26 February 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-251 runs aground during action with Japanese barges in southern Empress Augusta Bay;and is then sunk by shore battery, Solomons, 06°30'S, 155°10'E.
(13 combat losses (1 by CD), 22 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

7 March 1944
Japanese shore battery sinks motor torpedo boat PT-337, Hansa Bay, New Guinea, 04°09'S, 144°50'E; PBY (VP 34) rescues survivors on 11 March.
(14 combat losses (2 by CD), 22 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

17 March 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-283 is sunk by friendly fire from destroyer Guest (DD-472), Solomons, 06°27'S, 155°08'E.
(14 combat losses (2 by CD), 23 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

27 March 1944
Motor torpedo boats PT-121 and PT-353 are mistakenly sunk by friendly bomber, Bismarck Archipelago, 05°17'S, 151°01'E.
(14 combat losses (2 by CD), 25 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

12 April 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-135, damaged by grounding one- half mile north of Crater Point, New Britain, 05°21'S, 152°09'E, is scuttled by crew and motor torpedo boat PT-137.
(14 combat losses (2 by CD), 26 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

29 April 1944
Motor torpedo boats PT-346 and PT-347 are accidentally sunk by F4Us (VMF 215) and F6Fs (VF 34), and SBDs and TBFs off Cape Lambert, Bismarck Archipelago, 04°13'S, 151°27'E. PBY (VP 91) rescues survivors from the two PT-boats.
(14 combat losses (2 by CD), 28 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

5 May 1944
U.S. motor torpedo boats blockading the southeastern coast of Bougainville encounter five or more heavily armed Japanese barges. In the ensuing action, the barges and enemy shore batteries on Rantan and Bougainville catch the three PTs in a cross fire, sinking PT-247, 06°38'S, 156°01'E.
(15 combat losses (2 by CD), 28 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

27 May 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-339, damaged by grounding off Pur Pur, western New Guinea, 04°01'S, 144°41'E, is scuttled by her crew to prevent capture.
(15 combat losses (2 by CD), 29 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

18 June 1944
Motor torpedo boats PT-63 and PT-107 are destroyed by fire off New Ireland, 01°45'S, 150°01'E.
(15 combat losses (2 by CD), 31 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

24 June 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-193, irreparably damaged by grounding, western New Guinea, 00°55'S, 134°52'E, is burned by her crew.
(15 combat losses (2 by CD), 32 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

15 July 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-133 is sunk by Japanese shore battery off eastern New Guinea, 03°28'S, 143°34'E.
(16 combat losses (3 by CD), 32 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

16 September 1944
Motor torpedo boat operations begin from Morotai, N.E.I., to maintain patrols, break up the movement of Japanese troops in barges, and prevent seaborne counterattacks from Halmahera. Two Morotai-based boats, PT-489 and PT-363 transit 60 miles of mined waters and then run an 11-mile gauntlet of coast defense batteries to rescue downed F6F pilot from escort carrier Santee (CVE-29) in Wasile Bay, Halmahera; under fire for two and a half hours, both boats receive superficial shrapnel damage in the successful operation that snatches the aviator out of danger. Lieutenant Arthur M. Preston (Commander, MTBRon 33), commanding the operation, will receive the Medal of Honor.

19 September 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-371, damaged on the 17th by grounding off northwest coast of Halmahera, 02°05'N, 127°51'E, is sunk by demolition charges.
(16 combat losses (3 by CD), 33 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

12 October 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-368, damaged on the 10th by grounding, western New Guinea, 01°59'N, 127°57'E, is scuttled by demolition charges.
(16 combat losses (3 by CD), 34 op losses, 4 kills (1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

25 October 1944
Battle for Leyte Gulf continues as TG 77.2 (Rear Admiral Jesse B. Oldendorf), augmented by TG 77.3 (Rear Admiral Russell S. Berkey) and TG 70.1 (39 motor torpedo boats) execute the classic maneuver of "crossing the tee" of the Japanese "Southern Force" (Vice Admiral Nishimura Shoji and Vice Admiral Shima Kiyohide) in the Battle of Surigao Strait. TG 70.1 begins the action against the Japanese ships. PT-137 torpedoes light cruiser Abukuma, but PT-493 is sunk by enemy secondary battery gunfire, 10°15'N, 125°23'E. DESRON 54 (Captain Jesse G.Coward) then attacks; McDermut (DD-677) sinks destroyer Yamagumo, 10°25'N, 125°20'E, and damages destroyers Asagumo and Michisio. Subsequently, light cruiser Denver (CL-58) sinks Asagumo at entrance of Surigao Strait, 10°04'N, 125°21'E. DESRON 24 (Captain Kenmore M. McManes) enters the fray and Hutchins (DD-476) (McManes's flagship) sinks Michisio, 10°25'N, 123°25'E; DESRON 56 (Captain Roland M. Smoot) attacks; Albert W. Grant (DD-649) is damaged by both friendly and Japanese gunfire at this phase of the battle, 10°27'N, 125°25'E. Two Australian warships take part in this fleet action--heavy cruiser HMAS Shropshire (in TG 77.3) and destroyer HMAS Arunta (in DESRON 24)--that see the destruction of battleships Fuso and Yamashiro, 10°25'N, 125°20'E. Heavy cruiser Mogami and destroyer Shigure are damaged.
(17 combat losses (3 by CD), 34 op losses, 5 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

9 November 1944
USAAF B-25s and P-38s (13th Air Force) and motor torpedo boats PT-492, PT-497, PT-524, and PT-525 begin attacks against Japanese convoy in Ormoc Bay, the former damaging escort vessels Okinawa and Shimushu.

10 November 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-321, damaged by grounding off Leyte, 11°25'N, 124°19'E, is scuttled.
(17 combat losses (3 by CD), 35 op losses, 5 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

25 November 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-363 is sunk by shore battery off Cape Gorango, Halmahera Island, 00°55'N, 127°50'E.
(18 combat losses (4 by CD), 35 op losses, 5 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP), 1 damage (1 DD))

29 November 1944
Motor torpedo boats attack Japanese shipping in Ormoc Bay; PT-127 sinks Patrol Boat No.105 (ex-Philippine Arayat), 10°59'N, 124°33'E; PT-128 and PT-191 sink auxiliary minelayer Kusentai No.105.
(18 combat losses (4 by CD), 35 op losses, 7 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

10 December 1944
Motor torpedo boat PT-323, damaged by suicide plane, 10°33'N, 125°14'E, is beached and abandoned.
(19 combat losses (4 by CD), 35 op losses, 7 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 1 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

12 December 1944
Motor torpedo boats PT-490 and PT-492 sink Japanese destroyer Uzuki off Canaguayan Point, Leyte, 11°03'N, 124°23'E.
(19 combat losses (4 by CD), 35 op losses, 8 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 2 DD, 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

26 December 1944
Japanese "Intrusion Force" (Rear Admiral Kimura Masanori), consisting of heavy cruiser Ashigara, light cruiser Oyodo, three destroyers and three escort destroyers, approaches Mindoro to bombard the beachhead. USAAF B-25s, P-38s, P-40s, and P-47s and Navy PB4Ys and PBMs successively attack the force. These damage Ashigara (near-misses), Oyodo, destroyers Asashimo, Kiyoshimo, and Kasumi, and escort destroyers Kaya and Kashi. Kimura's force carries out its bombardment mission, then encounters U.S. motor torpedo boats; PT-77 is damaged, probably accidentally bombed by friendly aircraft. Subsequently, PT-223 sinks the already damaged Kiyoshimo off San Jose, 145 miles south of Manila, 12°20'N, 121°00'E.
(19 combat losses (4 by CD), 35 op losses, 9 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 3 DD (1 shared with A/C), 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

14 January 1945
Motor torpedo boat PT-73, damaged by grounding, 13°50'N, 120°10'E, is beached and abandoned.
(19 combat losses (4 by CD), 36 op losses, 9 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 3 DD (1 shared with A/C), 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

31 January 1945
Motor torpedo boat PT-338, irreparably damaged by grounding (see 27 January) is destroyed by demolition squad off Semimara Island Luzon, 12°06'N, 121°23'E.
(19 combat losses (4 by CD), 37 op losses, 9 kills (1 CL (shared with A/C), 3 DD (1 shared with A/C), 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damage (1 DD))

No more success or loss until the end of the war

So the total for the above action was:
_ 19 combat losses
_ 37 other losses (this including friendly fire and 2 ships lost when the TK carrying them was sunk)
_ 12 enemy ships hit by torpedoes, 9 sunk (1 CL (shared with A/C), 3 DD (1 shared with A/C), 2 SS, 1 AP, 1 PC, 1 ML), 1 damaged (1 DD), two dud (1 CL, 1 DD)
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Nikademus »

PT's work much better since they were changed from acting like TB's (going after the high value ships regardless of screen size) to having to fight through said screening forces more times than not.

Only problem now is the player's ability to mass whole "PT fleets" at one location. In a recent PBEM....i battled a fleet of (IIRC) around 100 at an invasion point. It was silly.
Speedysteve
Posts: 15974
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Speedysteve »

100?!?[X(]
 
Crazy.
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
AmiralLaurent
Posts: 3351
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: Near Paris, France

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by AmiralLaurent »

Now, how does it compare to WITP ?

First, all 37 "op losses" will never happen in WITP. Then 4 of the 19 losses were CD guns fire, that won't target patrolling PT. So in WITP, a player would only lose 15 PT to sink a CL, 3 DD, and some small ships... Still a good ratio.
The problem is that this 15 PT are only 25% of the real PT losses. In fact, PT should be treated as "torpedo planes" in a way, and should suffer highly from op losses, as they did in RL.

Second, the AA defence of the PT was not so good as in the game, where I have totally stopped to try to sink them by air as losses suffered are even worse (in points) than sending DD to hit them. On the other hand most of the A/C-PT fights were at night and will never occur in WITP (no patrol aircraft at night, and chance of night naval attack very low).

Third, the above record didn't include what were probably the most valuable taks of the PT during the war: chasing Japanese barges (no figures but they probably sank hundreds), saving Allied pilots ,bringing patrols forward, recon, etc... In WITP none of these tasks are essential. In fact only the first is possible, but in WITP Japan has probably not 5% of the barges it had in RL.

Fourth, the PTs sank two submarines.... Probably impossible in WITP.

Fifth, the PT were able to raid rather far from their bases (ex: during the Bismarck Sea Battle).

Sixth, the above record gives no idea of the number of occasions were PT were near Japanese TF and didn't engage. For example, PT were involved in none of the battle off Guadalcanal in November (3 battles one the 13, 14 and 30) but some were based here. During the battle of Leyte, 32 PT were patrolling Surigao Strait and only managed one hit.
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by jwilkerson »



Good data !!! [&o]

Now if we could get the equivalent for a few games, we'd have a valid comparision (now where the hecque is that PT boat comprehensive report display bootawn?[:D] )
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by jwilkerson »

In a recent PBEM....i battled a fleet of (IIRC) around 100 at an invasion point. It was silly.

I once battled 50 fleets of one each PT boat at an invasion beach ... that was even sillier !

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
Andy Mac
Posts: 12573
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 8:08 pm
Location: Alexandria, Scotland

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Andy Mac »

Aye but how many more times do the IJN launch raids on defended ports in game compared to real life more actions = more combat
BLUESBOB
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:56 pm
Location: Fullerton, Ca.

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by BLUESBOB »

OK...so they weren't very effective in surface, shore, or air engagements. But, did they do the job they designed to do? Patrol, reconnaisance, rescue, ferrying supplies, interdiction of barges...and be a general pain in the ass to the Japs. Yeah, they may not have sunk many big ships, but I think they did their job. I just have one question, and two observations.
 
Just how many barges and other small craft did they PT's sink during the war?
 
In going through the history, I can see where the lack of good navigational charts hurt the PT fleet. So many groundings and such. Also, I wouldn't have wanted to be a PT in the Aleutians. The seas up there are pretty rough year round. I don't know why any were sent up there.
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Nikademus »

once is enough.

Admiral Mikawa sir! we can't get to the transports....the sea is crowded with dozens upon dozens of wooden boats.....its so thick we keep running into them!

RUN AWAY!!!!!!

(sound of cow being catapulted over the battlements)

[:D]

(ok....Joe topped me......the 1 ship TF tactic is one of the ultimate exploits....its even more fun when you use a single AK per TF)
Speedysteve
Posts: 15974
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Speedysteve »

LOL Nik[:D]
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
spence
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by spence »

13 October 1943
Japanese planes attack four Lambu Lambu-based U.S. motor torpedo boats southwest of Choiseul; PT-boaters shoot down attacking Japanese floatplane, an event that proves "the greatest lift" to the sailors who tangle almost nightly (and heretofore largely unsuccessfully) with nocturnal enemy aircraft in that theater.
(included to show that the PT AA fire was not so great... at least once a week one PT was damaged by a Japanese plane, mostly floatplanes flying night patrols

Something not included in your analysis is how many planes PTs may have shot down in the daytime.  I don't see a connection between your conclusion re PT AA in the game (where the planes are almost always attacking in daytime) and the mention of this incident. 

I more or less agree that PT AA should be rather poor at night.
BLUESBOB
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:56 pm
Location: Fullerton, Ca.

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by BLUESBOB »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

once is enough.

Admiral Mikawa sir! we can't get to the transports....the sea is crowded with dozens upon dozens of wooden boats.....its so thick we keep running into them!

RUN AWAY!!!!!!

(sound of cow being catapulted over the battlements)

[:D]

(ok....Joe topped me......the 1 ship TF tactic is one of the ultimate exploits....its even more fun when you use a single AK per TF)

"You don't frighten us, American PT pig dogs...Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of silly persons. I blow my nose at you and your so-called MacArthur...you and your silly wooden boats!
AmiralLaurent
Posts: 3351
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: Near Paris, France

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by AmiralLaurent »

ORIGINAL: spence
13 October 1943
Japanese planes attack four Lambu Lambu-based U.S. motor torpedo boats southwest of Choiseul; PT-boaters shoot down attacking Japanese floatplane, an event that proves "the greatest lift" to the sailors who tangle almost nightly (and heretofore largely unsuccessfully) with nocturnal enemy aircraft in that theater.
(included to show that the PT AA fire was not so great... at least once a week one PT was damaged by a Japanese plane, mostly floatplanes flying night patrols

Something not included in your analysis is how many planes PTs may have shot down in the daytime.  I don't see a connection between your conclusion re PT AA in the game (where the planes are almost always attacking in daytime) and the mention of this incident. 

You're right... in fact they were few times PT were attacked in daylight by Japanese planes. PT-34 being perhaps the only one lost to enemy air attack while being at sea (not counting the kamikaze attack... by the way kamikaze sank one PT but damaged several... probably by crashing nearby, not easy to catch a small fast target).

My main problem is that WITP is not allowing the same mission in the day and the night. All were flown at both times (tranport, naval search, naval attack, paradrop). In fact WITP is not allowing these (or seriously reducing the chance of naval attack to the point it is almost a legend) while allowing night sweeps, of which I find no historical example (except maybe a poor way to simulate Intruder activity). I would have no problems that such night ops were possible but far more deadly and with less planes than in daylight.

In this case, I can't see how you can test PT AA fire at night in WITP...
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by jwilkerson »

In my longest running PBEM (7 Dec 41 to 25 Jan 44) I have sunk 69 allied PTs.

The two pieces of data we need from the games, are PT losses and what has been sunk/shot down by PTs ... the shoot downs are probably impossible to get after the fact, but regarding the torpedo hits/kills at least the US boats use 21" MK 8(dev102) or 22" MK 13(dev95) and a quick check indicates these devices are ONLY used by the US torpedo boats, so we should at least be able to determine US PT Boat ship kills after the fact. And maybe the PT losses should thus also only be US boats (not the dutch).




AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
User avatar
Feinder
Posts: 6983
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:33 pm
Location: Land o' Lakes, FL

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Feinder »

I have the combat reports for every day for two, maybe a third PBEM game.  Latest is December 42.
 
The whole PT debate is meaningless to me (as in, I consider myself objective in them).  I don't consider my use of them "a-historical", I only keep them in groups of 4 - 6.  And do love surface actions, and get myself into a few of them whenever possible (for all surface types).

But if you're really bored, I would be happy to send my copies of the combat.txt files if you want to analyse them somehow.  I don't really know what sort of results you'll fine.  I know that my PTs have a fairly short life span.  But they've clobbered a few DDs.  I've never sent them against anything wierd like KB tho, and they've certainly gotten thrashed if a BB showed up. 
 
It's a lot of files tho.
 
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

Image
User avatar
niceguy2005
Posts: 12522
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Super secret hidden base

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by niceguy2005 »

First off, thank you Amiral Laurent for the insightful battle history. Several things jumped out at me.

1. PT's actually hit and sunk more ships than I thought.
2. The PT's seemed to have a hull that was "magnetically" drawn to a reef. [;)]

I think Amiral Laurent has a point that op losses need to be considered. Everytime a PT TF leaves port there should be a % chance of op losses in shallow water. Also, I know from other readings that PTs suffered from considerable maintenance problems so sys damage should accumulate very quickly.

I also think Nik is right. PT's, when used with an ounce of common sense and a tad bit of gamer's honor, work pretty well in the game. Their presence in the game forces players to use more screening ships than they otherwise might have. My PTs in the DEI had a moderate amount of success chasing down and engaging some of the small gun boats and transports trying to land. This is sort of the WitP equivalent of "running off the enemy". It forces them to use resources to account for the PTs.

If only the replay bug was fixes PTs I could use PTs more often. As it is, we have a new house rule not to use them because of the replay bug.
Image
Artwork graciously provided by Dixie
User avatar
niceguy2005
Posts: 12522
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Super secret hidden base

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

once is enough.

Admiral Mikawa sir! we can't get to the transports....the sea is crowded with dozens upon dozens of wooden boats.....its so thick we keep running into them!

RUN AWAY!!!!!!

(sound of cow being catapulted over the battlements)

[:D]

(ok....Joe topped me......the 1 ship TF tactic is one of the ultimate exploits....its even more fun when you use a single AK per TF)

"You don't frighten us, American PT pig dogs...Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of silly persons. I blow my nose at you and your so-called MacArthur...you and your silly wooden boats!
[:D]
Image
Artwork graciously provided by Dixie
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Nikademus »

My simple house rule is no more than 1 full strength TF (12 PT's) per any one base.

works well enough.
User avatar
niceguy2005
Posts: 12522
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Super secret hidden base

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

My simple house rule is no more than 1 full strength TF (12 PT's) per any one base.

works well enough.
We had a rule of no more than 6 in a TF, but I would never even consider putting like 6 TFs in a hex
Image
Artwork graciously provided by Dixie
User avatar
Sneer
Posts: 2434
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:24 pm

RE: PT boats: an historical survey

Post by Sneer »

question:
were PT able to operate during bad weather ???
from what I know answer is no
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”