Review @ Out of Eight

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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LOK_32MK
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by LOK_32MK »

For whatever is worth, i'd prefer to see the few precious resources devoted to TOAW, applied to the many game engine improvements suggested in this forum and elsewhere (improved naval, air model, multiplayer play, scenario editor, etc. etc.).
The Graphics are good enough for me and (being totally unscientific here [8|]) to the majority of the people who buy and play TOAW.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by sol_invictus »

Just to add my 2 pence, I quit expecting or even wanting better wargame graphics after Atomic's V4V series came out. They have reached a point that they are now about on the bottom of my priorities list for any wargame enhancements. Interface and AI improvements are right at the top.
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JReb
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by JReb »

ORIGINAL: LOK_32MK

For whatever is worth, i'd prefer to see the few precious resources devoted to TOAW, applied to the many game engine improvements suggested in this forum and elsewhere (improved naval, air model, multiplayer play, scenario editor, etc. etc.).
The Graphics are good enough for me and (being totally unscientific here [8|]) to the majority of the people who buy and play TOAW.

Absolutely!! How much can anyone expect from a 2D top down map?

and welcome to the forums. (saw its your first post)
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF

ORIGINAL: Lava
Another review that can't escape the "graphics trap."

I talk about the graphics in every game I review. Personally, I don't weigh the graphics heavily at all (especially in wargames); TOAW3 did get a 7/8, I don't give many of those. I try to approach the game from the perspective of a more general audience, because:
(a) people who really like the game are going to get it anyway
(b) most of the people on the Internet fall into this category
I do say "Of course, most people who play wargames don’t care about cutting-edge 3-D graphics"
I've played plenty of games that looked good but had no content and I rated them as such (UberSoldier is a good example).
Of course, on the flipside, why can't (or don't) wargames have the same graphics as a real time strategy game?
And that's why I appreciated the review. If it was on a wargaing site, it wouldn't make a lot of sense.

As a review going to the general public, I'd say that 7 out of 8 is a pretty darn impressive score.

Thanks,
Ralph
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: JReb

ORIGINAL: LOK_32MK

For whatever is worth, i'd prefer to see the few precious resources devoted to TOAW, applied to the many game engine improvements suggested in this forum and elsewhere (improved naval, air model, multiplayer play, scenario editor, etc. etc.).
The Graphics are good enough for me and (being totally unscientific here [8|]) to the majority of the people who buy and play TOAW.

Absolutely!! How much can anyone expect from a 2D top down map?

and welcome to the forums. (saw its your first post)
I hope to rework the internals anyway, the code has way too much duplication in it (It was written in C, and that had to be done at the time.) That makes the dialogs sometimes act differently, and also makes the whole thing a bit harder to modify without breaking something. It's also caused some subtle errors.

If I'm going to modify that anyway, I may as well update the UI to more modern standards if I can do it easily.

Ralph
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
ORIGINAL: JReb
Civ comes to mind.

Excellent example.

Not my cup of tea...

Personally, if I was going to upgrade the graphics of a game like TOAW what I would do is include an even closer zoom whereas you could then have whatever you wanted displayed... bigger unit icons with more information or 3D stuff, for example.

But I doubt I would use the function. At the operational level, I perfer to be able to see the big picture and not have to zoom down to play the game. It would depend heavily on how it is implemented.

The graphics may look "old" but what is more important is that they convey the necessary information which you require to plan and execute your strategy. In my opinion, graphics compliment gameplay, not the other way around. TOAW may look simple, might look outdated, but it is one kickass of a wargame.

It's like chess. Your basic chess game doesn't sell because of the handcrafted Star War's spinoff pieces. It sells because of the game mechanics.

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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Siberian HEAT »

The beauty of TOAW 3 is that you can change the background to almost anything you want (see attached)...and the challenge (as I have been doing this a lot lately) is finding a set of graphics which work with the large variety of land features (roads/cities/etc.), and also work well on a variety of terrain. To find one all-encompassing graphics set is difficult, although the stock graphics which come with T3 are very nice, and are more realistic looking IMO than other similar games out there.

In the future you are going to see even more cool graphics come out of the scenario design environment because graphics can now be changed on a per-scenario basis, meaning one graphics set can be created that only has to look good in 1914 German East Africa, and nowhere else. In a very real sense, each scenario could look totally different, making them almost standalone games of their own. With a little patience, it would even be entirely possible to create a scenario which looks identical to a boardgame covering the same operation (make it look like the PanzerBlitz map for example LOL).

While part of me would like to see the ability to overlay maps such as TOPOS, at the scale we play there is little use for them other than eye candy. TOAW doesn't use elevation in a more sophisticated way which would necessitate knowing where valleys, ridgelines, etc. are located (eg. for LOS) -- because all relevant information is already on the playing map. TOAW 3 shouldn't make the mistake of throwing in all sorts of maps which add nothing functional to actual gameplay. Because we have to play on a hex grid, it would be impossible to play solely on any other sort of map without constantly changing layers to see what is really below that hex. Would it be cool to see a real map of the battlefield on the screen - probably. Could you "play" on that map - doubtful.

As for 3D, I'm pretty old school on that point. It isn't that I am dead set against it, but the fact is that you lose tons of information when compared to a 2D map. Most significantly you lose the ability to glance at a unit and intuitively know its contents (and strength!). When looking at 3D you can't see the difference between similiar units...forcing you to mouse-over the entire battlefield. This is a problem that is not easily solved. RTS games can get away with it because there are fewer units and they are much larger on the screen because the battlefields are so much smaller...and that is why their graphics can assume more realism. At the scale of TOAW 3, you can't have trees that are visibly swaying and whatnot, because you wouldn't see individual trees at operational scales. More importantly, TOAW is not a game where you push one stack into another and fight it out like an RTS game - and I would hate to ever see this game billed as such.

I should point out that I am not here to say that 2D in the way of the Old School is hereby the Truth of all things. I've just not seen an implementation of 3D graphics which provide more detail than 2D in this environment. I'm on the lookout for it though. [8D]



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Dr. Foo
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Dr. Foo »


The remark about the graphics just shows that the reviewer does not really understand the community TOAW is serving. Most of us grew up playing with a map and cardboard cutout units, sitting at our kitchen tables painstakingly calculating and bookkeeping each and every turn that could take hours. Now we have all our Avalon Hills and Victory Games, on our PC's!
 
If the units looked any different I would not be as interested in this game.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by JReb »



[/quote]
If I'm going to modify that anyway, I may as well update the UI to more modern standards if I can do it easily.

Ralph

[/quote]

That sounds great but I am sure it will be a challenge!

[/quote]
I should point out that I am not here to say that 2D in the way of the Old School is hereby the Truth of all things. I've just not seen an implementation of 3D graphics which provide more detail than 2D in this environment. I'm on the lookout for it though.
[/quote]

My point exactly. Love to see it...haven't seen it yet. I have to admit I have no ideas in this area either. Regardless, TOAW is a great game.




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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Lava

Personally, if I was going to upgrade the graphics of a game like TOAW what I would do is include an even closer zoom whereas you could then have whatever you wanted displayed... bigger unit icons with more information or 3D stuff, for example.

It WOULD be neat to have a bigger zoom level where instead of each hex containing one stack of nine units, each was three stacks of three.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

The remark about the graphics just shows that the reviewer does not really understand the community TOAW is serving. Most of us grew up playing with a map and cardboard cutout units, sitting at our kitchen tables painstakingly calculating and bookkeeping each and every turn that could take hours. Now we have all our Avalon Hills and Victory Games, on our PC's!

Some, some. There are increasing numbers of us for whome Avalon Hill is just as much a part of history as the battles they made games about.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Bloodybucket28th »

Ha!  Graphics!  Back in the day, we stared at green text and liked it!
 
Seriously, the graphics in TOAW should be somewhere on the list of items to be polished up, but I think a lot of it would have more to do with zoom levels and map info than an option to replay a battle in stunning 3D with multiple camera views and cutscenes featuring Vin Diesel explaining the way that rounds work while he shoots an MP-5 in slow motion.  Although, that might be interesting.
 
While I agree that the target audience is more likely to get enthused about interface improvements than eye candy, the current 3D view is pretty useless, and if it got replaced by something pretty or better yet, more informative, that would be great.  I've always thought that it might be fun in a game of this scale to get an end of turn report by G-section. 
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Martin James »

Hi
Might it be possible to have a third display option for the unit counters - ie their unit designation.
After all, when the actual generals looked at their maps, that was what they saw - not figures for combat strength or movement points. For me, this would definitely help the suspension of disbelief.
Martin
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Catch21 »

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo
Most of us grew up playing with a map and cardboard cutout units, sitting at our kitchen tables painstakingly calculating and bookkeeping each and every turn that could take hours. Now we have all our Avalon Hills and Victory Games, on our PC's!

If the units looked any different I would not be as interested in this game.
I'll buy this. Those old cardboard counters didn't evolve the way they did over 30 years for nothing. They conveyed information. And sometimes that's often what a commander needs most. I don't want to see a prancing or neighing cavalry pony or a beautifully rendered T34 pirouetting on a 3D base thanks. There are other games for that. Stay focussed.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by sol_invictus »

Yes, clear and concise information is paramount. Leave the frills to Command and Conquer.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Martin James

Hi
Might it be possible to have a third display option for the unit counters - ie their unit designation.
After all, when the actual generals looked at their maps, that was what they saw - not figures for combat strength or movement points. For me, this would definitely help the suspension of disbelief.
Martin,
I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you explain a little further?

Thanks,
Ralph
Ralph Trickey
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Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
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My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by WhiteOwl »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
ORIGINAL: Martin James

Hi
Might it be possible to have a third display option for the unit counters - ie their unit designation.
After all, when the actual generals looked at their maps, that was what they saw - not figures for combat strength or movement points. For me, this would definitely help the suspension of disbelief.
Martin,
I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you explain a little further?

Thanks,
Ralph
I think what Martin means is similar to a request I made a couple weeks ago. Have a third mode where you can see which formation and which unit within the formation each counter is in. For example, 2nd regiment of the 4th Infantry Division would say 2/4ID, and if it were broken into battalions, it would sat for example 1/2/4ID.

Thanks,
Yair
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Bloodybucket28th »

Maybe this could replace the oft-reviled 3-D mode, or be worked in to it so that the player could get the orginization information while in that view.
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

Maybe this could replace the oft-reviled 3-D mode, or be worked in to it so that the player could get the orginization information while in that view.
Some people like the 3D mode, actually. If it had more information on it, it might be usable.

Let me think about that view. One problem I can see is that some scenarios aren't going to be able to display that information for all armies, but if it's optional, it may be possible.

Ralph
Ralph Trickey
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RE: Review @ Out of Eight

Post by Awac835 »

while we are at graphics well, wargames like this should stay 2D imo.
but like someone above said. ill take cutscenes starring vin disel any day of the week [8D]
nahh really i think hes a very bad actor tbh.

sry for the double post i missed second page [:-]
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