Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

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Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by treespider »

In the process of reading Shattered Sword figured we needed another fanboy argument that doesn't involve Nazi's....

Perhaps the Wildcats should get a Thach Weave Bonus?
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by treespider »

Seems Parshall and Tully are of the opinion the Wildcat was not a match for the Zero until the Thach used his weave...
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by el cid again »

How about a Koga's Zero bonus (for the ALLIES)? The Allies are not a match for the Zero until its tactical strengths and weaknesses are UNDERSTOOD? AFTER Koga's Zero, the Zero bonus goes away? Of couse, that is approximately what the rule says now - except the date is not coordinated.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: treespider

In the process of reading Shattered Sword figured we needed another fanboy argument that doesn't involve Nazi's....

Perhaps the Wildcats should get a Thach Weave Bonus?

The Thatch Weave was just an example of the kinds of tactical innovations you get from highly qualified pilots. My father-in-law was fairly typical. He was an aeronautical engineer and a reserve naval fighter pilot with carrier training. He didn't go to sea because the Navy felt he was more valuable as a test pilot at Boeing. (Boeing was the Navy's second source of carrier fighter designs after Grumman.)
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

The "Zero Bonus" in WitP is made to show that many (most) allied airmen tried to dogfight Zero at the start of the war which was suicide. When knowledge of Zero's abilities were known the Allied airmen were better against it (i.e. the 1st maxime of Zero combat was udsed - "Never dogfight a Zero!").

Since this is 100% realistic and historic I always maintained that Zero bonus (as implemented in WitP by Matrix/2by3) was very OK thing.


On the other hand the "Thach Weave" is 100% defensive move historically used by handfull of pilots.

Therefore, IMHO, we should not introduce it because it is of minor strategic value...


Leo "Apollo11"


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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

The "Zero Bonus" in WitP is made to show that many (most) allied airmen tried to dogfight Zero at the start of the war which was suicide. When knowledge of Zero's abilities were known the Allied airmen were better against it (i.e. the 1st maxime of Zero combat was udsed - "Never dogfight a Zero!").

Since this is 100% realistic and historic I always maintained that Zero bonus (as implemented in WitP by Matrix/2by3) was very OK thing.


On the other hand the "Thach Weave" is 100% defensive move historically used by handfull of pilots.

Therefore, IMHO, we should not introduce it because it is of minor strategic value...


Leo "Apollo11"

Historically used by USN carrier pilots. It illustrates the difference between who could fly a plane and someone who was a professional pilot. The IJN and USN carrier pilots were the top of the food chain, and both should get the bonus. One difference between the two navies was that the USN believed in using its top pilots to train the wartime influx. The IJN just used them up.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: herwin

Historically used by USN carrier pilots.

This is incorrect.

It should say "Historically used by _FEW_ USN carrier fighter pilots at the beggining of war"... [8D]


This is because this defensive move was not official and not every USN fighter squadron used it before the war and at the beggining of the war.


Leo "Apollo11"
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: herwin

Historically used by USN carrier pilots.

This is incorrect.

It should say "Historically used by _FEW_ USN carrier fighter pilots at the beggining of war"... [8D]


This is because this defensive move was not official and not every USN fighter squadron used it before the war and at the beggining of the war.


Leo "Apollo11"

According to Parshall and Tully Thach didn't use his weave until Midway.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by treespider »

But of great interest here is a most excellent forum on the Weave ...including posts by Lundstrom...

http://yarchive.net/mil/thach_weave.html
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Ursa MAior »

I dont really care how it is achieved in the game, I have some ideas why were it so historically, but I want HISTORICAL results. In other words till the end of 1942 clear Zero superiority, which disappears shortly after with the arrival of F6F and corsair.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by spence »

The Zero never demonstrated clear superiority vs the F4F if one considers the losses of each side in A2A combat. The Zeros best day was against the Marine CAP at Midway but with overall superior numbers and contending with an opposing force composed of mainly obsolete a/c (F2As) manned by mostly green pilots their performance was nothing spectacular.
In every other encounter the Zeros certainly held their own but they couldn't keep the F4Fs from inflicting (significant) losses on the Japanese bombers (including the incident over Midway) they were escorting or prevent F4F escorted American bombers from getting through to their targets.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: treespider

But of great interest here is a most excellent forum on the Weave ...including posts by Lundstrom...

http://yarchive.net/mil/thach_weave.html

Interesting argument. The thing that allowed the USN carrier pilots to use the weave effectively was their extensive training in deflection shooting. That was pretty much unique to the Navy and the Marines, and meant that pilots could deal with the crossing targets that the weave tactic gave them.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: spence

The Zero never demonstrated clear superiority vs the F4F if one considers the losses of each side in A2A combat. The Zeros best day was against the Marine CAP at Midway but with overall superior numbers and contending with an opposing force composed of mainly obsolete a/c (F2As) manned by mostly green pilots their performance was nothing spectacular.
In every other encounter the Zeros certainly held their own but they couldn't keep the F4Fs from inflicting (significant) losses on the Japanese bombers (including the incident over Midway) they were escorting or prevent F4F escorted American bombers from getting through to their targets.

AIR from 30 years ago, the A6M/F4F exchange rate in 1942 was not significantly different from 1.0.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Ursa MAior »

Better dive, better roll, better climb, better turn. What is it if not superiority? The Zero had its weaknesses, no doubt, but was a SUPERIOR PLANE TO THE F4F. Why is it so hard to accept?

Let's just not start this conversation again please.

ANY good pilot could use its planes advatages against the disadvantages of the other's. EVEN a clearly SUPERIOR Mustang was shot down by a Me-109 in '45! So what? Its pilot was probably one of the remaining experten. In a fight between similar planes in similar circumstances experience is onyl decisive. Nothing else.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by mogami »

Hi, even during the "Turkey shoot"The Japanese must have had a few Zero pilots who knew how to fly. Around 40 USN fighters were shot down in A2A. (well I've seen USN numbers from 29 to 42 aircraft shotdown)
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Better dive, better roll, better climb, better turn. What is it if not superiority? The Zero had its weaknesses, no doubt, but was a SUPERIOR PLANE TO THE F4F. Why is it so hard to accept?

Let's just not start this conversation again please.

ANY good pilot could use its planes advatages against the disadvantages of the other's. EVEN a clearly SUPERIOR Mustang was shot down by a Me-109 in '45! So what? Its pilot was probably one of the remaining experten. In a fight between similar planes in similar circumstances experience is onyl decisive. Nothing else.
A6M vs F4F:
Better Climb, better turn (below 250-275) - yes. Better dive, better roll? What the heck have you been reading?

A VF only beam defence bonus (similar to the AVG exception) to counter the zero bonus would be an excellent idea!

EDIT:
Also I think you are confusing DOMINENCE by the Hellcat in 1943, with effective parity maintained by the Wildcat regardless of it's shortcomings vs the Zero in 1942. The loss rates in in 1942 were around 1:1 with slight advantage to one side or the other depending on circumstances of each encounter.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Nikademus »

except the weave was only used twice in 42.
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

except the weave was only used twice in 42.
It may have only been in two air combats in the entire year of 1942 - but that would only suggest that F4F drivers found other means of effectively combating the Zero in all the other engagments of that year, since accumlated losses were not THAT different[;)].
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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Mynok »


Pull up a chair.....it's going to be a humdinger.

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RE: Thach Weave Bonus vs Zero bonus???

Post by Ursa MAior »

BigB

You are probably right (I am too lazy to check). I thought much more maneuvarable means advantage in ALL areas. I could be wrong. Wouldnt be the first time [:D]
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