The germans

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Froonp
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RE: The germans

Post by Froonp »

CWiF had an option to go to the bitter end.
It was great. I once went up to 1946, invading Japan.
The only problem is that CWiF (and MWiF too) does not include units from PatiF / AiF / PoliF, so there's not much to built once in 1945, and the build phase becomes quite bland & useless.
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Ballista
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RE: The germans

Post by Ballista »

It would be a good incentive to have an add-on with those things, however. I'd love a "to the bitter end" option. But in all the WIF games I've played we've never had to add up victory cities to tell who won (even the pet/spouse/AOG destroyed games were not really that much in the balance)....
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SeaMonkey
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RE: The germans

Post by SeaMonkey »

Even though I know zilch about WiF, I have always maintained a philosophy that war is about control of resources. Humans can be considered as a resource, among other things, therefor every hex on the map has a certain inherent value.

In my opinion almost every hex on the map should have some value(ie victory point/s) assigned to it. Obviously some hexes have a greater value than others, depending on the amount of resources or potential resources they represent.

It would not be difficult for an in game algorithm to keep up with the ratio of one side's accumulation of victory points compared to the opponent's, based on hex control. Simply assigning victory levels based upon that ratio would indicate the degree of victory at anytime during the game.

Obviously the final step would be to determine the time period for the ending of each scenario and ascertaining the degree of victory based upon the control of resources.
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RE: The germans

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Even though I know zilch about WiF, I have always maintained a philosophy that war is about control of resources. Humans can be considered as a resource, among other things, therefor every hex on the map has a certain inherent value.

In my opinion almost every hex on the map should have some value(ie victory point/s) assigned to it. Obviously some hexes have a greater value than others, depending on the amount of resources or potential resources they represent.

It would not be difficult for an in game algorithm to keep up with the ratio of one side's accumulation of victory points compared to the opponent's, based on hex control. Simply assigning victory levels based upon that ratio would indicate the degree of victory at anytime during the game.

Obviously the final step would be to determine the time period for the ending of each scenario and ascertaining the degree of victory based upon the control of resources.

I could argue that the current victory conditions do as you ask. They assign a value of 1 to the victory hexes and a value of 0 to every other hex.

More to your point though, there are a ton of totally worthless hexes on the map. Now if you want to assign a value of 0.000001 to all those ice encrusted hexes in Siberia, you could, but that is close enough to zero for my purposes.

I have written some routines to find the "center of mass" in the USSR, and it isn't easy. I was trying to determine where to center the map for setting up units that are to be placed in the USSR. I gave values to cities, ports, and resources, etc., and tried a bunch of different schemes. In the end, I just centered it on Moscow and let the player reposition it from there. The center of mass calculations proved worthless.
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RE: The germans

Post by SamuraiProgrmmr »

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Even though I know zilch about WiF, I have always maintained a philosophy that war is about control of resources.


Yes, but do not forget that a VERY importan resource is labor i.e. population, i.e. cities.
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SeaMonkey
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RE: The germans

Post by SeaMonkey »

I totally agree with you Steve, there are many hexes not worth 1 and would be considered as zero in the victory point calculations.

I'm just saying that a forest may represent building materials, a piece of ground, farmland, the sparse human inhabitants, laborers, etc. In my philosophy the glass is always half full....well maybe a few drops exist at the minimum.

Now in no way would I want to see an oil producing hex have a value even close to a piece of swamp, but over a period of time, that swamp may have some value(urban landfill site). I have always wanted some mechanism to divert a gamey deployment of combat units, especially initial setups, where the player usually configures his units based on combat prowess only, when in reality there are other things to consider.

I understand completely that the port of Antwerp, given an intact infrastructure, is likely of great value when compared to the icy tundra of Siberia, but all of Siberia? Perhaps it would be productive to run a unit through the Siberian expanse and gain control of the meager resources there, given an innovative mind at the helm.

Now I realize that the evaluation of a hex's resources should be gaged at the technological perspective of the WW2 era, but even Siberia served a purpose then, an internment camp, perhaps not a very efficient one, but still an intangible value to someone.
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RE: The germans

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

I totally agree with you Steve, there are many hexes not worth 1 and would be considered as zero in the victory point calculations.

I'm just saying that a forest may represent building materials, a piece of ground, farmland, the sparse human inhabitants, laborers, etc. In my philosophy the glass is always half full....well maybe a few drops exist at the minimum.

Now in no way would I want to see an oil producing hex have a value even close to a piece of swamp, but over a period of time, that swamp may have some value(urban landfill site). I have always wanted some mechanism to divert a gamey deployment of combat units, especially initial setups, where the player usually configures his units based on combat prowess only, when in reality there are other things to consider.

I understand completely that the port of Antwerp, given an intact infrastructure, is likely of great value when compared to the icy tundra of Siberia, but all of Siberia? Perhaps it would be productive to run a unit through the Siberian expanse and gain control of the meager resources there, given an innovative mind at the helm.

Now I realize that the evaluation of a hex's resources should be gaged at the technological perspective of the WW2 era, but even Siberia served a purpose then, an internment camp, perhaps not a very efficient one, but still an intangible value to someone.


Just as another point to consider: the Mercator projection means that the amount of land that each hex represents is not consistent throughout the map. Hexes near the poles represent much less real estate than hexes near the equator.
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SeaMonkey
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RE: The germans

Post by SeaMonkey »

That's an easy one Steve. Just imagine that a grouping of 7 hexes in the northern latitudes is equal to one at the equator, or any concentric group of hexes is representative as one at the equator, the equator being the basis of measurement.

Look, your the developer, and following these forums, I'm of the opinion your doing a fine job. I haven't much input, because I'm not informed of the WiF history or mechanics and by the time I would feel enlightened enough to comment, you'll surely have the game released.

Never the less, I have an abundance of experience playing wargames, especially ones configured the way WiF is. I can hypothesize and theorize and that is all I can contribute to this seemingly wonderful game. It would never be my intent to cloud any issues or delay development in any manner, but only stimulate an entreprenurial atmosphere of creation.

You are doing a magnificent job and an expeditious one at that, IMO. I wish all developers would work in the climate you have established for MWiF and in conclusion obtain such a loyal following, because in essence MWiF has displayed that aura of premature success so lacking in the world of computer game these days. Thusly, I believe all the followers of this forum trust in your judgement to make the best decisions for this game(with a little guidance), a truly unique attainment, congratulations.
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RE: The germans

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Thank you.

Now if the code would only behave, ...
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Caranorn
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RE: The germans

Post by Caranorn »

ORIGINAL: buckyzoom

You should post this on the wif list (the Yahoo wifdiscussion group) you're likely to get a lot of groans. It's been debated once or twice over there.

Once or twice? Lol, it's been beaten to death repeatedly would be more appropriate to say:-).
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quiritus
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RE: The germans

Post by quiritus »

I think that with the bid the game is balanced in term of victory point.
but in the same time it's unabalanced the axis is too strong.
i played many game with different group of player. i NEVER see, with WIFFE the germany surrender. in a game failed(exp players) to conquer france but a the end of the war was alive.
I think that the problem is the time. the average number of impulses is the same in 1939 with small density of unit that in 1944 when the number of unit in play is huge, because in a single turn it's rare that a coutry lose more BP that produce.
Try to play with monthly turn in 43/44(production every two month as normal) and 3 weeks turn in 45/46 and I think you find the game more balanced in term of historical result.
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RE: The germans

Post by c92nichj »

ORIGINAL: quiritus

I think that with the bid the game is balanced in term of victory point.
but in the same time it's unabalanced the axis is too strong.
i played many game with different group of player. i NEVER see, with WIFFE the germany surrender. in a game failed(exp players) to conquer france but a the end of the war was alive.
I think that the problem is the time. the average number of impulses is the same in 1939 with small density of unit that in 1944 when the number of unit in play is huge, because in a single turn it's rare that a coutry lose more BP that produce.
Try to play with monthly turn in 43/44(production every two month as normal) and 3 weeks turn in 45/46 and I think you find the game more balanced in term of historical result.
What you are saying is similiar to my viewpoint, the axis is too weak in the beginning but to strong in the end.
In a way the sides are too balanced, not giving the other side a chance to truly utilise all his potential during the time available).
Early in the war the allies will not make alot of the same mistakes as was made in the real war (letting the germans push their panzers through the ardennes without a fight), and later the Axis will not make the same mistake (hold every bit of taken ground in USSR, don't ry to blits the allies back to the sea after D-Day)
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RE: The germans

Post by SamuraiProgrmmr »

All Games are balanced IF you do the following:

1) Pick your optional rules.
2) Play the game twice (switching sides) with the same optional rules.
3) Compare victories.

The winner should be obvious.
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RE: The germans

Post by mlees »

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

All Games are balanced IF you do the following:

1) Pick your optional rules.
2) Play the game twice (switching sides) with the same optional rules.
3) Compare victories.

The winner should be obvious.

But it's not chess...

The inclusion of rolling dice for combat results can skew the results. I have played several memorable games where I could not roll a 'good' result ever. I amaze the statisticians by blowing the curve (in my opponents favor).

Also, I have noticed a "human" factor, that is not quantifiable:

If you destroy your opponents morale, they may cede the game even though things are not truly as bad as they perceive them to be. (I suppose you could offer to swap sides, but most players would rather accept the opponents surrender for bragging rights while, at the same time, drinking all their beer supply...)
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RE: The germans

Post by quiritus »

are balanced in term of victory condition but the problem of conquer germany remain.
the last time we have used a reverse side sistem, the first game is that in wich the german never vichy france, in the return i'm as german put russia out of european map, conquer UK, the game stop with panzer fighting in sud africa.
and due to a exceptional performance of jap in the first game and equally worst in the second, my team win for 1 point
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RE: The germans

Post by quiritus »

i don't think the axis is too weak in the beginning. for me the first 3 years are funny and well balanced. in the 39 the germany start a war it isn't prepared to fight so that france it's not automatic defeated(the german have all to vichy, but must think well about production and accept the loss occuring) and in a game without any kind of fog of war the historical mistake are difficult to obtain.
is after 42 that is too strong for me
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RE: The germans

Post by Neilster »

I think the issue here is how much do we direct the game along historical lines and how much do we leave it open? If someone competent had been in charge of the French army, France would have lasted much longer and exacted much heavier losses on the Wehrmacht. If the Japanese had only attacked the Commonwealth, America’s entry would most probably have been at least significantly delayed. There are numerous other examples of this sort of thing. The way the war went wasn’t pre-ordained.

In general I favour leaving the game open. It will be more interesting than constantly re-fighting a variant of WW2. The use of optional rules can direct the game along more historical lines if one wishes.

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c92nichj
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RE: The germans

Post by c92nichj »

To summarise my opinion about game balance I think that the french are too hard for Germany to beat and USSR are too easy to push off the european map.
But as have been said before the options you choose to play with will impact that quite a lot.
Just as in quiritus example games, once germany failed to vichy france and once a blowout in Russia occured. Thoose results are a little bit too common for my liking, what option set would be good to to prevent that of happening?
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RE: The germans

Post by Hortlund »

I think that before we can discuss game balance for any nation, we need to see how the unilimted breakdown of corps affects land combat. My gut tells me that the breakdown rule will change alot of the dynamics in land combat, and therefore also how Germany is able to handle France and the USSR.
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RE: The germans

Post by pak19652002 »

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

To summarise my opinion about game balance I think that the french are too hard for Germany to beat and USSR are too easy to push off the european map.
But as have been said before the options you choose to play with will impact that quite a lot.
Just as in quiritus example games, once germany failed to vichy france and once a blowout in Russia occured. Thoose results are a little bit too common for my liking, what option set would be good to to prevent that of happening?


Well, you could speed up the defeat of France by allowing for surprised ZOCs in low countries. This helps Grmany blow right through Belgium. Conversely, disallowing surprised ZOCs might encourage Russia to defend farther forward and thereby give up less territory in the critical first few impulses. Of course, you would have to house rule this East/West discrepancy.

Also, railway movement bonus helps the Germans eat up territory in bad weather. Eliminating that would help the Russians. You could also use HQ movement option to slow down the German advance. Neither one of these would affect France, obviously.

It's also been said that using artillery helps France defend. I've always used it so I don't know whether this makes a difference. Few would give up artillery I think.

Not allowing defensive shore bombardment would help Germany marginally in France, but would impact other areas of the game significantly.

That's all I could come up with after glancing at the options chart.

Peter
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