January Update

[Hard Sarge]

roger that
the double headed eagle is common (amoung the royals ?)

the Germen one is much more robust though, it really was pretty

but anyone who would see it, would see what they thought it stood for, not for what it was

[McGuire]

OK, OK!

SRY for being rude! Was a little upset then.

That's all folks!

[Pippin]

And back off topic again. Looking across my desk I still see Civil War General I and II. The first I bought years ago and never thought anything about it. There was a confederate flag on the cover art and the correct subtitle was Robert E. Lee: 's Civil War General. I see later when they made version II, some changes were done. Now you only see the Northern flag in the artwork, while the southern city is burning in ruins. The sub title has been changed to a more generic name. One wonders if this was due to management trying to create a more well rounded game, (you can play both sides now), or was due to some earlier complains.

I myself never felt guilty playing one side or another. Perhaps I am lucky that I am not American so I don't feel ties due to the south where I'd have to feel GUILTY. Alas, it is over and one with. Another thing I remember were numerous movie clips of re-inactments which are played through mpeg during moments in the game. As I recall, every year these reinactments are done somewhere in the US and hundreds come out to watch, but also there is becoming more outrage at these, as though they are somehow going to bring back what has already once was.

[anarchyintheuk]

I liked CivGen I also. Wish they would have made it so you could played both sides, however. I'm pretty sure that was their thinking in CivGen II.

I may live in Dallas, but I'm not much of a southerner in terms of family history. My folx moved to Dallas a couple years after I was born. All my ancestors (mostly Irish/English/Scottish, some German/Italian) came to the the US after 1880, so I can't really say what someone whose family has lived here for generations feels. Personally, I don't think about political factors when I play, unless they're associated with the game itself. Even then, it's in an abstracted "how do I beat this game" kinda way. Its different when I read, but I've never felt any sort of collective guilt over any of the historical actions taken by my state (which rules [:D]) or my country. I figure most nations have taken morally reprehensible actions during the course of their history, whether they were considered so at the time or in questionable view of hindsight.

BTW, there are still lots of reinactments taking place.

[1LTRambo]

ORIGINAL: Pippin

As I recall, every year these reinactments are done somewhere in the US and hundreds come out to watch, but also there is becoming more outrage at these, as though they are somehow going to bring back what has already once was.

Yes reinactments of civil war battles do occur in the U.S. and usually occur on the battlefields of those specific battles themselves. The most famous is of course Gettysburg which was the turning point in the war (militarily speaking) from Southern dominance to Northern dominance and eventual victory. However, politically, the turning point of the war was Antietam. After that battle, the South could no longer effectively gain foreign support for their war effort. Especially with Brittian, who found it difficult to support the Confederacy on moral grounds over the issue of slavery.
The reinactors for the most part are historical enthusiasts, but there are a few, very few, who do see it as an oppertunity to see the South rise again. Many try to recreate the atmosphere of the period and focus more on the details of uniforms, weapons, campaigning equipment, and camp life. Then the battle is a thrilling, but small part of the whole experance.

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I figure most nations have taken morally reprehensible actions during the course of their history, whether they were considered so at the time or in questionable view of hindsight.

Yes you are correct. Every nation (in the modern sense) and people have participated in reprehensible acts through out history. Some worse than others, ie: Nazi Germany but only because they had the technology to make war and destruction on a grand scale. There have been African wars where the killing compared to technology was so high that it makes Hitler look like a pacifist. The atricoties don't always have to accompany war either. The Soviets under Stalin killed untold numbers of people during the purges, and we can't forget the heritage of slavery that has stained the hands of every culture and continues in some cultures today.

[Ursa MAior]

Yes the atrocities must not be forgotten, and must be taught to every generation that they can learn from them (why and what not to do).

But when has the time come (sure there is one), to get over them? I've heard, from german, but also from russian (or ukrainian who were their subjugates you can guess how welcome they are in most of East Europe) the follwoing question: Why I am responsible for crimes which my grandfather -maybe- hasnt even comitted?
My answer is dont know, but after say 50-70 yrs (ie two generations) we should be over it. I think it is ridiculous to complain about something done more than 100 yrs ago (e.g. colonial atrocities comtted by EVERY colonial power).
To get back to our period. In the uprising in 1808 Spain, and in the following guerilla (hence the popular name) war both sides comitted atrocities, but I dont think either Spain or France have hard feelings towards each other because of that.

Thoughts anyone?

[Pippin]

BULLSHIT! I will you one thing... My great great great....(x24) grandfather was a Celt. We lived an ok life until those bastard Anglo-Saxons had to come over and invade. Then what happened? Us poor Celts were pushed out towards the sea during the invation. Everything was lost. Now, you may be able to forgive and forget those Anglo-Saxons but my great (x24) grandfather must be rolling over in his grave right now!

Never trust a German or their European buddies!

[Hard Sarge]

Historians who challenge the traditional narrative of a "Saxon conquest" point out a marked lack of archaeological evidence for a major invasion. They believe instead there was a gradual change in favour of the Anglo-Saxons, comprising mainly benign migration and resulting in a mixture with an existing population who absorbed the culture and language of the migrants. Studies that show the ethnic origins of the people have varied in their conclusions (for example the conflicting results of the genetic studies below) and there are some linguistic patterns in the development of Old English that compromise with Celtic traditions in a way that suggests gradual adoption.

One posited theory is that most sources for a "Saxon conquest" originated with historians with a partisan agenda in presenting an English identity [1]. The historian Norman Davies, in The Isles suggests that the Celts were overlooked in the historical record in part because no documentation of their orally-transmitted histories remain, the Celts having regarded writing as a threat to their oral traditions. Generations of history based on literary sources alone saw British history as beginning with Roman invasions of the first century AD: "So long as classical education and classical prejudices prevailed, educated Englishmen inevitably saw ancient Britain as an alien land." [2]

[Hard Sarge]

LOL looks like the Celts did it to them selfs to begin with

According to the Venerable Bede, the first significant body of Germanic settlers in England had been hired as mercenaries by the British Prince Vortigern during fifth-century struggles for power among British Celts that broke out when Roman colonial troops were withdrawn. After a falling-out with their employer, these Germanic warriors seized British territory in the south of England for themselves and brought their families over the English Channel to settle it. Archaeological evidence also reveals a gradual infiltration of Germanic peoples into England along the rivers of east central England, then a low-lying bayou country that would have been impossible to police.

[TexHorns]

Count this Texan in the camp with no guilt. Slavery was an American insitution not just a southern institution. The Emancipation Proclamation itself only applied to the unsubjagated southern areas and states. The nuetral states and northern states where slavery still existed were not included by the Proclamation until after the War. Even areas of the south, controlled by Federal troops were not effected by it until the War's end. My family never owned slaves. Iwas born a Texan and raised to be proud of where I'm from. Six flags have flown over Texas since it was "discovered" by non-native peoples. The Confederate flag is one of those flags. It is part of the history of my state and country. I do not beleive it to be a racist symbol. I do understand though how black Americans can see it as such. I own a Confederate battle flag that I have hung in my bedroom (as a kid) and in my game room (as an adult). I attend the Civil War reenactment weekend in my area as a spectator. I have taught my kids about history, including the War. I like to play as the COnfederate when I play a board or computer game on the subject. As a kid during the late 70's and early 80's I can remember my Mom railing against all the "damn yankees" who had come from mostly Michigan to Houston due to the economic boom occuring here during that time. (What's the difference between a "yankee" and a "damned yankee"? The "yankee" comes south then goes back home; a "damned yankee" comes south and stays.)

War's are a part of every poeple's history and it helps to shape who that people become. We can't blame the child for the sin's of their fathers or grandfather's. At some point we have to forgive, or we as the human race will never find lasting peace. Look at many of the war's being raged today around the world. How many go back to ethnic and religious differences spanning hundreds and thousands of years. Enough already people. Get over the past and move on. Can you imagine the south holding such a serious grudge that a new civil war could break out based on old feelings? Would never happen in the US. I guess our identity as American's first (that is hard to say as a native Texan) and how that binds us together is what makes our country unique in the world.

[Monadman]

Nicely put TexHorns.

Just for the fun of bantering a fellow American from the south, we use to have a saying up here in New Hampshire (and there were bumper stickers printed in 70’s). That was: “Welcome to New Hampshire – now leave”. Then of course, I also remember one from Texas during the ‘70s (during the oil shortage scare) that went something like this: “Help freeze a Yankee- burn more oil”

I’m sure someone (or more) took it all too seriously.

Richard

[1LTRambo]

Great reply TexHorns, I think you made the point very succintly. I would point out only that comments and grudges like expressed by Pippin ( though I hope he said those things in jest) help to continue those anamosities that continue to fuel racial, cultural, and ethnic tentions through out the world. Each one of us has to make the decision to put those issues asside, learn from the past, and work for a better future.
That was my two pence [:'(]

[ezzler]

I am from England , and this flag debate will occur over the Euro Soccer championships this year.
The English flag {red cross white background} is widely seen as a racist flag due to being used by extreme right wing organisations { in a similar way to the Reb flag}and of course our wonderfully well behaved Football fans.
The country will go flag mad for the summer with cars and houses sporting the cross of St George {which is very rare to see here} Pubs and bars will be ablaze with flags , and every concievable type of merchandise will have the flag on.I will love it and wear my soccer top too.
Only the media will commenet on all the flags racial possibilities. The offended will be offended but after the football all of the bunting will come down not to be seen widely for some 2 more years untill the |World Cup and no long term harm will be done. The fact that the tournament is in \Germany {our favorite enemy and we've fought everyone at least once} wil add to the satisfaction of being English .
There is national pride and nationalism , but they are not the same. To confuse a battle enactment as a sudden move towards racisim would be to think that in June in England the country suddenly embraced Nazism for 3 weeks and then returned to multi-culturalism.
But more importantly ... FINISH THIS GAME ALREADY

[TexHorns]

Hey Mon,

Yes we did have a bumper sticker and a SONG that said "freeze a yankee" that was related to the natural gas shortage in the north around the time you stated. But it was all in jest as far as I was concerned.

Although we are American some states have a highly independent feeling about themselves. Sounds like New Hampshire might share some of that with Texas.

Remember the Alamo!!!!!

[TexHorns]

THis reminds me of the debate held at The University of Mississippi several years back. THe mascot for the university is the rebels and they used the Confederate Battle Flag as part of the expression of school spirit at sporting events. Several years ago the rebel flag was removed as an official symbol of the school due to it's racist conotations. Some individual UMiss supporters still use it.

THe racists ruined the historical significance of the flag and now prevent it's use in the general public.

[Ursa MAior]

Well Pippin, if you have come this far there's something I have to tell you. King Arthur was Roman, and most of his 'knights' were sarmatian, or even iranians! Yes, yes Parsifal means a man from Iran (parsi). Not to mention they were probably recruited in the area, which is eastern Hungary now. The legend of the Excalibur also comes from the steppes, since neither before nor after a certain period (2-11. centuries AD) was a sword stabbed into a stone (in practice into the soil), except by nomadic people to mark the place of the festivity (not the tomb itself) held to commemorate the death of a leader.

Most of the things you saw in the latest King arthur movie was true (at least to our current knowledge), only the costumes were completey ahistoric.



So much about ancient stories.

[Pippin]

I have decided to forgive the Germans, only because were it not for them, Britain would be speaking French right now (so would we all reading this forum right now).

OK, and now for something different. Honestly I do not even know what part of my background is Celtic or not (or if it's even possible to backtrack that far). Just poking some fun, so if any Anglo-Saxons are still around.... relax.

[1LTRambo]

AaaaaHHH Pippin, I figured as much. From your postings, I deduced that you were more intelligent than that remark. Sometimes sarcasm can get a point across, or just be fun.[;)]

Ursa MAior, you have a really good grasp of history, I'm impressed.

[Ursa MAior]

Pippin
Sorry if I was insulting. I speak english well (I think) which makes most peolpe think I am a native speaker, which I am obviously not, therefore I don't feel the small differences between sarcasm and outright bullying. What I wanted to say is that if we've gone so far back into history ...
I apologize again.

Thank God 1LTRambo has not misunderstood my intention. Thanks for the praise but it is not my merit. My teacher (how do you call it in a university?), who was teaching us the ancient history of magyars is very up-to-date, and is an archeologist and a reenactor besides. It is fun to see weapons (of whuich you learn) in action.

[ess1]

Visited this Forum to find out when, if ever, this game will see the light of day only to read many moronic postings.
Finish this game ...
Oh yes, I don't mind who wins at rugby as long as we beat France...[;)][;)]