My biggest concern when buying this game was whether the gaming interface would be cumbersome or intuitive. Unfortunately, it is the former.
Much like its difficult-to-use web site (with various popup windows, hidden and moving scroll bars, links to pages without content), Matrix Games has a game design that leaves much to be desired.
Before I get further into that criticism, I want to say that even with the shortcomings, the game is admirable in scope and depth. However, playability is hampered due to the frustrating and poorly implemented user interface.
A few notes:
· Why can’t a find arrival dates of aircraft in the database? Why doesn’t sorting by type work? (And various other issues here).
· Watching the battles is hokey to say the least – and time consuming. So I turn that off but have no visual way to go back and view where the battles occurred or with a quick click get a summary. Instead, I must be satisfied with a text display that gives me coordinates… Yet, there is no way to hover over the map and determine ones coordinates.
· Stepping through task forces is a pain. I can only “next task force” within a hex. If I open the menu to list all task forces, I can click on a task force, get its info but am not immediately taken to that portion of the map. Even if I did, I could see what was behind the menu without closing it. Same is true for airfields and air groups.
· Where can I find battle losses?
· I must continually scan where they placed the “exit” button. Sometimes in the lower right. Sometimes on the top. Who knows? I’ll get used to that after awhile, but it is still power design.
I’m sure I’ll find more to criticize after playing longer, but a poor UI is the death knell of game – or any software. I feel that those of us starved enough for a quality game with all of its historical glory will deal with these limitations, but I truly wish Matrix would work harder to get it right.
I have similar fears for other upcoming games that I’m eager for from a gaming perspective.
saddened by poor interface
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
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McNaughton
- Posts: 113
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RE: saddened by poor interface
I see you aren't familiar with PacWar then... One of the worst UIs I have ever played. Sometimes a left click will do something, some times a right click. HOWEVER, I can tell you that after a few initial times I have not had a single problem with PacWar's interface. WitP will take some getting used to, but the way it is set up will just take time to get used to, like PacWar.
However, some things could be improved, just like with any game.
I believe that battles have two options, one a text review of the battle, another a visible representation. You can turn both on or off at your leisure, and AFAIK, the screen hovers over the region at which the battle takes place, so you are aware where the battle is by watching the AAR and looking at the geography around you.
However, some things could be improved, just like with any game.
I believe that battles have two options, one a text review of the battle, another a visible representation. You can turn both on or off at your leisure, and AFAIK, the screen hovers over the region at which the battle takes place, so you are aware where the battle is by watching the AAR and looking at the geography around you.
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Primal Fury
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:34 pm
RE: saddened by poor interface
I have been wondering if anyone would post this critique. I have been very tempted to do so myself. Don't get me wrong, I like the game and I own pacwar and UV and probably every other GG game ever made...but at $75 I think I have a right to say that the interface needs improvement. It's the same interface as PacWar from '91 or something.
For example:
- Why can't I drag and drop a TF to a new destination, rather than filling forms in a 4 step process, where menu's cover the screen?
- On the Set TF Dest screen, why are friendly land units (and probably other friendly's) hidden from view?
- The loading troops process is broken; why do I need to make side notes on the load cost of a unit?
- Why is there no create TF selection from the ships in port view?
...to name a few.
I would have more time for this is it was a brand new game, but in this case the interface was that pioneered in Pacwar 10-12 years ago. Surely some extra effort could have been applied here. But you've got my money, so maybe it doesn't matter.
For example:
- Why can't I drag and drop a TF to a new destination, rather than filling forms in a 4 step process, where menu's cover the screen?
- On the Set TF Dest screen, why are friendly land units (and probably other friendly's) hidden from view?
- The loading troops process is broken; why do I need to make side notes on the load cost of a unit?
- Why is there no create TF selection from the ships in port view?
...to name a few.
I would have more time for this is it was a brand new game, but in this case the interface was that pioneered in Pacwar 10-12 years ago. Surely some extra effort could have been applied here. But you've got my money, so maybe it doesn't matter.
RE: saddened by poor interface
Come on now...its alot better than the original PacWar. This is the UV interface. If your familiar with UV this is second nature. Considering the vast scope of this game, I don't think its that bad at all.
Granted, I think there are alot of things that could be streamlined or made more intuitive. However, they have never marketed this game to anything other than grognards.
Granted, I think there are alot of things that could be streamlined or made more intuitive. However, they have never marketed this game to anything other than grognards.
RE: saddened by poor interface
I’m quite familiar with PacWar (and WiR and other great Grigsby games), but I don’t think you can compare. PacWar is more than a decade old and computers have come a long way since then. Can’t compare as this game should have a far superior interface rather than one that is weaker in many respects.
RE: saddened by poor interface
Forget PacWar, as Sinjen mentioned, WitP is based on UV, which if you have played then the interface does not seem so strange. That is not to say it couldn't be improved but many of us have adapted to the interface and don't notice any awkwardness.
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
RE: saddened by poor interface
I do tend to agree that there are a few areas that could be improved and although yes, it is the same interface as UV, UV was a much smaller game in comparison. These problems were generally also there in UV, but as WITP is 10 times as complex the problems are 10 times as noticable. UV wasnt $80, either, which leaves the user expecting a little more I think.
I also dont really think that by saying 'well, there is worse out there' is really helping, either, as the developers really need to know what peoples concerns are in order to try and improve on that (especially as this engine is to be used for another game). Personally I dont think I would buy another game based on this engine unless the interface was more user friendly, and Im sure that is something the developers want to know.
I have has a few small problems, but some of my main concerns at the moment are sort of metioned above also...
* How can I find my *true* battle losses for a battle? As both sides have fog or war applied to them during the turn playback I am left guessing as to what really happened with regards to my own troops, how many I lost, etc. I think the player needs to know an accurate account of the battle from his perspective.
* I dont usually have time to watch air to air battles either *yet* if I dont I am putting myself at a disadvantage as the animation shows a more accurate representation of the battle (even though it still has FOW) than the report given afterwards, which currently can show some really silly results in comparison. This is just confusing to me - why give the player two sets of FOW'ed results with one being way more innaccurate than the other.
* As air to ship combat is one of the most important aspects of this game, there really needs to be a way to prioritise naval targets for air groups so they make 'smarter' descisions.
As someone who used to worked with interface design I can tell you that information such as battle losses, etc, should be very easy to find in a game such as this. For instance there could be an option to simply highlight all hexes in which battles that took place in the last turn, giving you the option to click on them and be given a report of the results (and even watch the movie again). Being able to see this info would be very helpful in the planning stages for the next turn. There are also many other good points mentioned above, such as the dragging and dropping option.
Dont get me wrong, I think WITP is fun has the potential to be a great game and the interfaceis currently usable, but still feels like its using old or confusing design practices in some areas which can hopefully be worked on in future patches. Players shouldnt have to fight with the engine in order to get the information or the results they need, and currently it feels like you need to do that at times.
Dawg
I also dont really think that by saying 'well, there is worse out there' is really helping, either, as the developers really need to know what peoples concerns are in order to try and improve on that (especially as this engine is to be used for another game). Personally I dont think I would buy another game based on this engine unless the interface was more user friendly, and Im sure that is something the developers want to know.
I have has a few small problems, but some of my main concerns at the moment are sort of metioned above also...
* How can I find my *true* battle losses for a battle? As both sides have fog or war applied to them during the turn playback I am left guessing as to what really happened with regards to my own troops, how many I lost, etc. I think the player needs to know an accurate account of the battle from his perspective.
* I dont usually have time to watch air to air battles either *yet* if I dont I am putting myself at a disadvantage as the animation shows a more accurate representation of the battle (even though it still has FOW) than the report given afterwards, which currently can show some really silly results in comparison. This is just confusing to me - why give the player two sets of FOW'ed results with one being way more innaccurate than the other.
* As air to ship combat is one of the most important aspects of this game, there really needs to be a way to prioritise naval targets for air groups so they make 'smarter' descisions.
As someone who used to worked with interface design I can tell you that information such as battle losses, etc, should be very easy to find in a game such as this. For instance there could be an option to simply highlight all hexes in which battles that took place in the last turn, giving you the option to click on them and be given a report of the results (and even watch the movie again). Being able to see this info would be very helpful in the planning stages for the next turn. There are also many other good points mentioned above, such as the dragging and dropping option.
Dont get me wrong, I think WITP is fun has the potential to be a great game and the interfaceis currently usable, but still feels like its using old or confusing design practices in some areas which can hopefully be worked on in future patches. Players shouldnt have to fight with the engine in order to get the information or the results they need, and currently it feels like you need to do that at times.
Dawg
RE: saddened by poor interface
I guess the "cumbersome" feel of this game really depends on either A, your experience with UV, or B, your expectations as mentioned.
If you had no experience with Uncommon Valor, your expectations are liable to be all or nothing when you play. A love it or hate it feel for the interface.
I for one have played Uncommon Valor faithfully since it's inception, and the interface, while different grew on me quickly. For me WiTP is really much the same. In many ways its like paging through a great big combat manual with its varied pages... It doesn't really bother me.
My only suggestion would be to take the time to learn what everything does for you and roll forward from there. One of the earliest suggestions from the developers was to start small with the "battle" scenarios and move up to the big campaigns. That might just alleviate some of the aggravation as well since you'd learn the interface more effectively.
If you had no experience with Uncommon Valor, your expectations are liable to be all or nothing when you play. A love it or hate it feel for the interface.
I for one have played Uncommon Valor faithfully since it's inception, and the interface, while different grew on me quickly. For me WiTP is really much the same. In many ways its like paging through a great big combat manual with its varied pages... It doesn't really bother me.
My only suggestion would be to take the time to learn what everything does for you and roll forward from there. One of the earliest suggestions from the developers was to start small with the "battle" scenarios and move up to the big campaigns. That might just alleviate some of the aggravation as well since you'd learn the interface more effectively.
"Send in the Infantry. Tanks cost money... the dead cost nothing..."
RE: saddened by poor interface
Actually I am very familiar with UV [:)]
My point is that UV on a much smaller scale than WIPT, so although the interface could be a little awkward, the player didnt have to deal with it so much per turn in the game. Now, as WITP is so much large, the the player has to spend much more time per turn working with the interface per turn and thus the problems are compounded. Sure, one can still 'work' through it as they did in UV, but if we think outside of the box there are many easy ways it could be improved to help the player.
For instance, lets take something that should be *very* simple to do yet I currently cant think of a way to do it. How can I find out how many ground combat losses I took last turn in total, per country? For that matter, how can I find out how many losses a single unit took, accurately, in one battle last turn? Another example...how can I find out how many Nells actually did not come home from one particular target last turn so I can decide if it was worth the loss?
Im not trying to argue, just trying to point out something that is important to the player and should be very simple to find, yet isnt (I dont think?). [:)]
Dawg
My point is that UV on a much smaller scale than WIPT, so although the interface could be a little awkward, the player didnt have to deal with it so much per turn in the game. Now, as WITP is so much large, the the player has to spend much more time per turn working with the interface per turn and thus the problems are compounded. Sure, one can still 'work' through it as they did in UV, but if we think outside of the box there are many easy ways it could be improved to help the player.
For instance, lets take something that should be *very* simple to do yet I currently cant think of a way to do it. How can I find out how many ground combat losses I took last turn in total, per country? For that matter, how can I find out how many losses a single unit took, accurately, in one battle last turn? Another example...how can I find out how many Nells actually did not come home from one particular target last turn so I can decide if it was worth the loss?
Im not trying to argue, just trying to point out something that is important to the player and should be very simple to find, yet isnt (I dont think?). [:)]
Dawg
RE: saddened by poor interface
I didn't buy UV, I've been waiting to see feedback of the stability, bugs and gameplay of this game. Sadly, for me, an interface is one of the issues which either allows or ruins replayability. That's probably enough to make me pass on this game. It's not 1995 anymore, though too many designers don't appear to realise this.
RE: saddened by poor interface
And I think dinsdale has hit it on the head.
A game must allow the player to easily move through the tasks and see the grand overview of a game... especially one of strategic nature like WitP. Any game that fails to do this, is -- quite frankly -- a bore.
I also work in an arena where UI is a supreme importance. Unfortunately, it seems there is a constant struggle to get developers to see beyond programming tasks to the the real workflow users of the end user. While I'm certain this game went through rigorous beta testing, I question whether a constructive but critical analysis was made of the UI.
In retrospect, I do wish I had my $70 back because I"m really not happy with the game.
A game must allow the player to easily move through the tasks and see the grand overview of a game... especially one of strategic nature like WitP. Any game that fails to do this, is -- quite frankly -- a bore.
I also work in an arena where UI is a supreme importance. Unfortunately, it seems there is a constant struggle to get developers to see beyond programming tasks to the the real workflow users of the end user. While I'm certain this game went through rigorous beta testing, I question whether a constructive but critical analysis was made of the UI.
In retrospect, I do wish I had my $70 back because I"m really not happy with the game.
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Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39325
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- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: saddened by poor interface
The WitP interface has a number of improvements in flexibility and information over UV. If you've been playing WitP for a while, load up UV again and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm sorry it's getting in the way of the game for some. In my opinion comparing it to PacWar doesn't make any sense interface-wise. This is a much better interface than any similar Grigsby monster-game (except UV) has ever had, in my opinion. Of course, to each his own and your mileage may vary, but it's not from 1995 IMHO.
Regards,
- Erik
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: saddened by poor interface
I must admit the interface isn't great in a lot of respects but it's not THAT bad!
I totally understand nihilimus's views - the exit button being placed in a different location on every screen is especially annoying - but it certainly isn't so bad as to ruin the game.
The worst interface I can think of is Harpoon III. That took me a while to get the hang of and still niggles me.. but sometimes u just gotta get used to something to find the gem of a game underneath. Working in government the computer interface I use at work often infuriates me.. I wouldn't be surprised if people working in the armed forces feel the same about their software.
It's a shame that sometimes the most infantile games have the best interface while the most complex have the worst.. one of life's paradox's.. but don't be put off WiTP because of that..
I totally understand nihilimus's views - the exit button being placed in a different location on every screen is especially annoying - but it certainly isn't so bad as to ruin the game.
The worst interface I can think of is Harpoon III. That took me a while to get the hang of and still niggles me.. but sometimes u just gotta get used to something to find the gem of a game underneath. Working in government the computer interface I use at work often infuriates me.. I wouldn't be surprised if people working in the armed forces feel the same about their software.
It's a shame that sometimes the most infantile games have the best interface while the most complex have the worst.. one of life's paradox's.. but don't be put off WiTP because of that..
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Platoonist
- Posts: 2302
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RE: saddened by poor interface
The whole exit button location controversy has me a bit befuddled. Whenever I wanna exit a screen I just hit the ESC button. Why waste a mouse click?
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Fallschirmjager
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- Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
RE: saddened by poor interface
I find the interface to be done very well. Maybe its my quick reflexes and young age [;)]
Learing the hot keys also helps.
Learing the hot keys also helps.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: saddened by poor interface
I agree! I have no problem with the interface. There could be some changes but overall I think it does a "great job", conceding the size and scope of the game. [:'(]
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The WitP interface has a number of improvements in flexibility and information over UV. If you've been playing WitP for a while, load up UV again and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm sorry it's getting in the way of the game for some. In my opinion comparing it to PacWar doesn't make any sense interface-wise. This is a much better interface than any similar Grigsby monster-game (except UV) has ever had, in my opinion. Of course, to each his own and your mileage may vary, but it's not from 1995 IMHO.
Regards,
- Erik
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: saddened by poor interface
Same here.[;)]
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I find the interface to be done very well. Maybe its my quick reflexes and young age [;)]
Learing the hot keys also helps.
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
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Zorfwaddle
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- Location: Pensacola, FL
RE: saddened by poor interface
Heh heh, just remember, age and cunning will always overcome youth and vitality! [:D]
Regards,
Regards,
"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"
RE: saddened by poor interface
Well in that case maybe Im missing something if this interface is indeed great, so Ill ask these questions again [:)]
How can I find out how many ground combat losses I took last turn in total, or per country? For that matter and more importantly, how can I find out how many losses a single land unit took, accurately, in one battle last turn? Another one...how can I find out how many Nells actually did not come home from one particular target last turn so I can decide if it was worth the loss? This is such basic and impotant information that isnt available unless Im missing it??
As Ive mentioned, I think its usable at the moment, but surely stuff like the above should easily be available to the user, shouldnt it? As Ive also said, Im not trying to put down the game, just trying to point out areas of improvement. Ive done a lot a beta testing in the past so I guess its just habit [:)]
Dawg
How can I find out how many ground combat losses I took last turn in total, or per country? For that matter and more importantly, how can I find out how many losses a single land unit took, accurately, in one battle last turn? Another one...how can I find out how many Nells actually did not come home from one particular target last turn so I can decide if it was worth the loss? This is such basic and impotant information that isnt available unless Im missing it??
As Ive mentioned, I think its usable at the moment, but surely stuff like the above should easily be available to the user, shouldnt it? As Ive also said, Im not trying to put down the game, just trying to point out areas of improvement. Ive done a lot a beta testing in the past so I guess its just habit [:)]
Dawg
RE: saddened by poor interface
The things you mention are features not interface ... and sadly they are missing features 
You can see aircraft losses total for today or since the start on the "i" screen. I agree it would be good to know these things. Even just a more accurate report for your own side, we should have better information than the enemy about what happened with our own troops.
I dont think we should have "perfect" info though, we are in game context the supreme commander, information arriving at our level will always have inacuracies, exagerations and out of date info. Thats realistic and keeps it interesting ... but I would like some better daily info charts on missions, losses etc Maybe something that can be requested in the wish list area. Who knows they may listen.
As far as the UI goes I agree there are some problems but after playing WitP since release (what, a week ago or so?) I can honestly say I dont even notice the UI anymore, my brain has just leanred what needs to be done and does it ..which is fine by me If I stopped to think about it I could pick things out that need improving but am having so much fun I really could care less where the 'exit' button is located.
Myros
You can see aircraft losses total for today or since the start on the "i" screen. I agree it would be good to know these things. Even just a more accurate report for your own side, we should have better information than the enemy about what happened with our own troops.
I dont think we should have "perfect" info though, we are in game context the supreme commander, information arriving at our level will always have inacuracies, exagerations and out of date info. Thats realistic and keeps it interesting ... but I would like some better daily info charts on missions, losses etc Maybe something that can be requested in the wish list area. Who knows they may listen.
As far as the UI goes I agree there are some problems but after playing WitP since release (what, a week ago or so?) I can honestly say I dont even notice the UI anymore, my brain has just leanred what needs to be done and does it ..which is fine by me
If I stopped to think about it I could pick things out that need improving but am having so much fun I really could care less where the 'exit' button is located.Myros
