Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Distant Worlds is a vast, pausable real-time, 4X space strategy game which models a "living galaxy" with incredible options for replayability and customizability. Experience the full depth and detail of large turn-based strategy games, but with the simplicity and ease of real-time, and on the scale of a massively-multiplayer online game. Now greatly enhanced with the new Universe release, which includes all four previous releases as well as the new Universe expansion!

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tortugapower
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Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by tortugapower »

Howdy folks!

In case anyone is interested, the most recent episode of the 4X Gaming Podcast was on Distant Worlds. You can find it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/4Xgaming/comme ... nt_worlds/

Of the panel of four people, there were two people who like the game, one who is neutral, and one who doesn't like the game (and he really doesn't like it!). I think this led to a fairly balanced discussion.

If you love DW as much as I do, or maybe even if you don't (but probably most people still patrolling this forum are enthusiasts), you may enjoy a back-and-forth on the game. Feedback is always welcome!

All the best,
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by StarLab »

Good discussion. Appreciate the mention... [8D]

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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Erik Rutins »

Thanks, I'll give this a listen tomorrow.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by tortugapower »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Thanks, I'll give this a listen tomorrow.


I'd like to make it painfully clear that I am Tortuga, not Kirkus, from this podcast... [;)]
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Erik Rutins »

Noted. [8D]
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Erik Rutins »

Thanks, it was a good listen overall and I appreciate the attention given to DW.

In the spirit of the podcast, I will also offer some comments. [:)]

I wish you had covered more of the gameplay parts of the game in more detail rather than focusing on interface gripes. I think some of what makes DW special and unique was represented well, but not all of it and I do think more could have been made of that rather than the interface. I certainly recognize that the interface can be improved, but I do feel that a large part of the problem is figuring out how the interface works. It is not unplayable or all that difficult, but a lot of parts are a bit hidden and buried a level or two down. Once you figure it out, it handles the functions you need pretty well, in my opinion. Could it be improved - certainly and we hope DW2's interface will be much better, but making interfaces for complex, data-rich evolving games is certainly as much an art as a science and can be very iterative.

Having also played many 4x games over the years, given that work on DW started in 2006 and it was released in 2010, and that it was was the result of a very small team with a very small budget, I don't consider its interface uniquely bad or horrible. Rather than comparing it to Sins of a Solar Empire which is also very different in terms of budget, complexity and gameplay, I'd say look at Sword of the Stars, which while still less complex than DW at least had similar gameplay but the interface was also nothing special and a bit quirky. If you are willing to learn it, the interface gets the job done (I'm sure Kirkus would disagree) but I've demoed the game at many conventions to folks who had never played it before and within 5 minutes had them up and running and playing it happily themselves.

Anyway, last note on the interface is that I would have loved to hear more specifics on how you would like it to be improved. Clearly we are hoping the DW2 interface will be easier to navigate and more useful, but the more specific feedback we get, the better.

The automation vs. manual approach is also something we are definitely thinking more about in terms of how best to introduce DW2 to new gamers. Again based on those in-person demos, the automation in that scenario is helpful to prevent people from being overwhelmed, but it's also clear that having the automation on by default makes the game impenetrable for many new players. Currently we're thinking about a much smaller scale intro/tutorial that allows automation to be gradually added in as the better way to go, rather than the previous "automate everything, then gradually turn it off". I do think the automation is something that makes DW able to relieve many of the usual burdens of mid to late game micro-management while retaining a vast and immersive scale better than many other games.

Regarding gameplay, I got the sense that Kirkus expected more of an economic simulation rather than a somewhat abstracted civilian economy (still less abstract than pretty much any other space 4x). The goal with the DW was to put enough in to create the emergent gameplay you mentioned regarding logistics and trade routes and the ability to conduct warfare and blockades in less direct ways. I believe it succeeded well in that goal, but for various reasons including game performance, we did not intend or achieve a complete economic simulation. I would also add that it's always a good bet when reviewing games that if a decision is made, it's probably more likely that the designers and developers know it could be done differently but have reasons to make that decision, often involving the many trade-offs that have to be considered at each step. [;)]

With that said, I do recognize that compared to many bigger budget / bigger team space 4x games, DW can feel rough and unpolished and overall I thought the criticism was fair and reasonably well founded. However, I do wish that more folks could "get" the magic of the game, which you clearly do but we need to figure out how to connect with more gamers the same way. I thought it was interesting that Kirkus mentioned that if the full economic simulation were there, this might be his favorite game. One of the things we tried to do with the various gameplay areas and the automation is support many different playstyles. It sounds like if we could expand on that area and improve the interface, we might bring him around.

Hopefully everyone on the podcast will give DW2 a look once we've finished it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and again I appreciate the attention and the thoughtful commentary. It's always helpful to see your game through the experiences and eyes of another.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by joeyeti »

Thx for the response Eric! We certainly wish DW2 will improve upon DW1.

Reg. the interface - yes, it is functional, but I guess the most issues the players have (barring those that have learned it by heart) are:
1) Unscalable and unreadable fonts vs. screen resolution (yes, selection panel is scalable, as is the Empire navigation tool on the left, but this is only a small part of the overall UI)
2) Unwieldy and limiting windows, again not scaling to the resolution (hence readability is bad)
3) More key shortcuts needed and a better mouse+keyboard handling
4) Perhaps using tooltip summaries instead of showing the info in the Selection panel (ála Endless Space or other newer games) - this could perhaps mean eliminating the Selection panel entirely, or convert it to something different

Someone can certainly explain it in better terms, as I only played a few games of DW1. But I am pumped for DW2.

One other important question - will you release something akin to Early Access, to get community feedback right from the start (before you even get to Beta stage)?
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Sabranan »

I would just like to point out that regardless of the podcast (which I'm about to listen to, not just ignoring the thread topic here), it's just nice to finally hear "something" about DW2. Just having some idea of what improvements are in the works helps to reassure people that it's actually happening, that you actually have a plan for it.

Even if it's years away from release, periodic titbits like this help a lot. Just dropping in every couple months or so and addressing some user concerns with a rough idea of how they'll be addressed in the next game would seriously help in keeping up morale around here.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by RogerBacon »

I really like the economic system in the Supreme Ruler games. If DW2 could include something like that I think it would be fantastic.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: joeyeti

Thx for the response Eric! We certainly wish DW2 will improve upon DW1.

Reg. the interface - yes, it is functional, but I guess the most issues the players have (barring those that have learned it by heart) are:
1) Unscalable and unreadable fonts vs. screen resolution (yes, selection panel is scalable, as is the Empire navigation tool on the left, but this is only a small part of the overall UI)
2) Unwieldy and limiting windows, again not scaling to the resolution (hence readability is bad)
3) More key shortcuts needed and a better mouse+keyboard handling
4) Perhaps using tooltip summaries instead of showing the info in the Selection panel (ála Endless Space or other newer games) - this could perhaps mean eliminating the Selection panel entirely, or convert it to something different-

Thanks for the more specific feedback.

I agree completely on the resolution/scaling. If you have a resolution over 1920x1080 things do get pretty small. The resolution/scaling issue was something that was a result of the original engine and while we mitigated it somewhat over time, we were never able to solve it due to the engine limitations. Let's just say that many things changed on the resolution front over the nine years between start of development and the final release of DW:U. We were able to address other engine limitations over time to improve performance significantly, for example, but this one remained insurmountable.

The good news is, DW2 will not have those resolution and scaling issues.

Could you elaborate on "better mouse+keyboard handling"?

We are making a lot more use of mouseover/tooltip info in DW2, so hopefully that should help with this.
One other important question - will you release something akin to Early Access, to get community feedback right from the start (before you even get to Beta stage)?

Not ready to comment on this, but I'll keep the question in mind.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Sabranan
I would just like to point out that regardless of the podcast (which I'm about to listen to, not just ignoring the thread topic here), it's just nice to finally hear "something" about DW2. Just having some idea of what improvements are in the works helps to reassure people that it's actually happening, that you actually have a plan for it.

Even if it's years away from release, periodic titbits like this help a lot. Just dropping in every couple months or so and addressing some user concerns with a rough idea of how they'll be addressed in the next game would seriously help in keeping up morale around here.

It will be a while yet before I can give any regular updates, so I don't want to get your hopes up. Things are still under wraps, as it were and there are good reasons to only release information when we are at the right stage. However, I can reassure you that DW2 is very much in progress and has been for a good long while. It is a massive project and has a very large plan which Elliot and I have spent a lot of time on. Elliot and I work on DW2 every day and we are as eager as anyone to complete it and get it out to all of you.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by joeyeti »

Thx Erik!
Could you elaborate on "better mouse+keyboard handling"?
I might not be entirely sure what I even meant by that [8|], but for instance there could be shortcuts tied to the windows you open, to quickly get a specific task accomplished. One game that comes to mind is Rimworld, in which many of the tasks on a command menu or sub-menu have a letter shortcut, so soon you memorize the frequently used sequences and you are able to quickly get to the "core" function in the third submenu - rather than clicking your mouse 5 times at various places in the opening menues and submenues. I realize this heavily depends on the game itself and the environment it is using, but it might be an idea for the big bag of ideas.

One other question (or rather two, tied together) - now reg. the documentation:

1. I have no idea how you are creating or processing your docs/future manuals, but if you at any stage need an independent eye to check/correct mistakes, point out inconsistencies and/or advise on layout, or even work on the documentation itself, I would be happy to assist there. I like tinkering with text and refining it to be as readable as possible.

2. A good idea would be to create a Wiki page (or perhaps use the free Google Sites framework - as this is also easy to edit and maintain and various formatting styles can be applied and used). Again this will mostly come up once a more concrete game starts to appear (and playable even), but I think creating an online knowledge base will be invaluable to new players (and "veterans" alike). Some of the folk here might point to my previous unsuccessful efforts to create a Distant Worlds 1 wiki and I am rightly to be blamed - real life took over and I simply did not have time to devote to it. But starting from scratch for a new game might be easier and there might also be more willing editors to fill in content as the game develops and grows.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Icemania »

The podcast certainly exceeded expectations with how well considered it was.

Some specific suggestions I would add for Distant Worlds 2:

1. A lot of the mechanics in Distant Worlds 1 aren't well explained to players in-game and you really have to get onto the forums, this could use huge improvement for Distant Worlds 2. Even in the forums we were confused a lot of the time!

2. A particular feature which has been apparent in recent very popular games such as Endless Legend is race specific mechanics (e.g. races that don't use money, or can't declare war etc), race specific quests, along with tech tree uniqueness for each race. In Distant Worlds 1 we had the occasional unique technology only. Given it's popularity, this needs to be present in some form, otherwise likely be a focus of some critique.

3. Diplomacy exploitation needs to be much tighter in Distant Worlds 2, waaaaaay OTT in Distant Worlds 1.

4. Distant Worlds 1 exploration was good but Stellaris has taken it to another level with the variety of exploration events and writing. Hopefully Distant Worlds 2 applies that and take it even further.

5. Stellaris has multiple end-game crises as well as the War in Heaven, without which the mid-to-late game would be a struggle. Hopefully Distant Worlds 2 applies that and take it even further.

6. Community expectations on AI performance are higher now than Distant Worlds 1. Gal Civ 3, Stellaris and Endless Space 2 have all been criticised which was quite justifiable as the release AI was weak. That said, they are all improving, so no doubt Distant Worlds 2 there will be similarly high expectations.

7. While it wasn't the intent Distant Worlds 1 the larger the ship the better. Small ships needs to have some bonuses (e.g. evasion) to make them useful in-game.

8. Please let me finally convince Nasarog from eXplorminate that the graphics won't hurt this time ... :)

Some of these are probably pipe dreams assuming the budget for Distant Worlds 2 is very limited compared to the competition e.g. Stellaris, Gal Civ III, Endless Space 2.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Cauldyth »

race specific quests

I seem to be in the minority these days, but I despise this recent trend of adding quests to 4X games. For me, a 4X game should rely on emergent gameplay, not scripted gameplay. I should feel motivated to do X because it makes sense for me to do it, not because the game offers me a carrot to do it.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

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Some of these are probably pipe dreams assuming the budget for Distant Worlds 2 is very limited compared to the competition e.g. Stellaris, Gal Civ III, Endless Space 2.

Do your best. We have faith, but that statement is all I need to know I think.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by ASHBERY76 »

The economy only really feels that relevant early game or if your fuel in targeted in war.The non abstracted economy is the main feature DW has compared to the crowd and should have the most focus in making it have gameplay even in late game.This and exploration which was never really improved open in the expansions.



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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Bingeling »

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
race specific quests

I seem to be in the minority these days, but I despise this recent trend of adding quests to 4X games. For me, a 4X game should rely on emergent gameplay, not scripted gameplay. I should feel motivated to do X because it makes sense for me to do it, not because the game offers me a carrot to do it.
This.

If they manage to hit a good difficulty balance, a living galaxy like in DW gives the best "quests". Revenge on those who stabbed you in the back, or on those who snatched that colony right before you got there. The good feeling of finally beating those annoying pirates.

Emergent gameplay is good gameplay.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by ASHBERY76 »

Quests do not stop Emergent gameplay but add flavour.
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by Franky007 »

Don't forget to add filters !
The tool bar on the left of the screen is very useful at the start of the game,
but by mid-game, the list are so big that it become useless...
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RE: Distant Worlds Universe on the 4X Gaming Podcast

Post by RogerBacon »

ORIGINAL: Francoy

Don't forget to add filters !
The tool bar on the left of the screen is very useful at the start of the game,
but by mid-game, the list are so big that it become useless...

I'd also like to see the grid views double sortable. Currently you can click on a header and sofr by that. I'd like to then be able to hold shift and click another header to sub-sort by that.
For example, First sort by Military ships and then click the ship class to group all the destroyers together, frigates together, etc.
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