AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Take command of air and naval assets from post-WW2 to the near future in tactical and operational scale, complete with historical and hypothetical scenarios and an integrated scenario editor.

Moderator: MOD_Command

User avatar
Gunner98
Posts: 5880
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:49 am
Location: The Great White North!
Contact:

AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Gunner98 »

There was a question on the Command Live vs. Chains of War thread

"can we get upgraded scenarios with aircraft damage enabled?"
I think the question is valid for the Community produced scenarios as well. Can't happen for all as some designers have dropped off or would have no interest but - from a community point of view, should we update scenarios to CoW standard?

Advantages:
- better modeling and brings play balance up to date
- prevents the scenario from going stagnant and becoming ignored

Disadvantages:
- more work on old scenarios means less work on new ones
- not everyone has or will have CoW so it might limit usability

I have my own thoughts but would be interested in what the community would like to see?

Don't think designers should be bound by the results of this thread but curious on the opinions out there.

B
Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/
User avatar
Randomizer
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:31 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Randomizer »

I have updated and uploaded three of my older Community scenarios to enable aircraft damage since all are aviation oriented. That said, the almost total lack of interest, expressed as downloads, means that I'm unlikely to bother uploading any more updates or scenarios period. Of course there's a possibility that they're just crappy scenarios, particularly when compared to the quality of the DLC scenarios thus far.

Everybody gets the editor to use and everybody can perform deep-rebuilds of community scenarios to add aircraft damage for their own use as they like. I had originally thought that upgrading and uploading one's community scenarios would be a good idea but no longer.

-C
User avatar
Stalintc
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:15 am
Location: Bristol UK

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Stalintc »

I see that it is a major ask for scenario creators to update all of their scenarios every time there is a new feature that needs it. Especially if there are many of them. Of course I think most of us would be grateful for any which are updated by the scenario designer.

I think it might help with scenarios overall to warn if there are any custom loadouts for example within the scenario which might become broken by a deep rebuild. Or even for Command to provide a flag for designers to set on a scenario which warns that it may be broken by an upgrade.

Of course I use the word "May" simply because how is one supposed to know if any future upgrade or database update might kill a scenario.
HCE Beta Tester
HCE Icon Mod available here
HCE Sound Mod available here
User avatar
kevinkins
Posts: 2465
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:54 am

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by kevinkins »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Advantages:
- better modeling and brings play balance up to date
- prevents the scenario from going stagnant and becoming ignored

Disadvantages:
- more work on old scenarios means less work on new ones
- not everyone has or will have CoW so it might limit usability

Will the designer need to have 2 separate files for their community pack scenarios i.e. one CoW enabled and the other left alone? If we knew the percent of users having CoW capabilities designers can make an informed decision on whether to upgrade their work. Not sure this can be answered directly since it involves sales figures. Does simply upgrading mean the scenario has to be re-tested to any degree?

Kevin

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
Alfred Thayer Mahan
User avatar
Kaldadarnes
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:10 am
Location: Berkshire, UK

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Kaldadarnes »

Which scenarios are they...
Omnia Videmus
User avatar
BradOrbital
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:12 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by BradOrbital »

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Advantages:
- better modeling and brings play balance up to date
- prevents the scenario from going stagnant and becoming ignored

Disadvantages:
- more work on old scenarios means less work on new ones
- not everyone has or will have CoW so it might limit usability

Will the designer need to have 2 separate files for their community pack scenarios i.e. one CoW enabled and the other left alone? If we knew the percent of users having CoW capabilities designers can make an informed decision on whether to upgrade their work. Not sure this can be answered directly since it involves sales figures. Does simply upgrading mean the scenario has to be re-tested to any degree?

Kevin


Been wondering the same, don't know which to rather focus on, CoW or non-CoW builds. If less own CoW then less would play the scenario. Interested in any answer for your questions above too.
User avatar
Owllord
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Owllord »

Personally I think going forward focusing on CoW-feature enabled scenarios makes more sense, as the adaption rate at the core of the community will be almost universal eventually, judging from the Discord where I have yet to hear from anybody that they do not have CoW and do not plan on purchasing it.
The artist known as Owl
cns180784
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:22 am

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by cns180784 »

From what i've gathered if you want to enable an older scenario to include a/c damage modelling all you need to do is a deep rebuild to the latest DB right? if so it takes 2 seconds.

For the creator of any scenario especially if they've made tens or more to have to deep rebuild all of these will take time for them that they shouldnt need to do. They gave us the scenarios to enjoy in the first place so we can just rebuild them ourselves. As i said takes 2 seconds.
mavfin
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:22 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by mavfin »

That's true for probably 95% or more of Scenarios...

Then there's ones like Facing the Dragon...the single version on Steam (DB429 DB3000) will work fine, but if you rebuilt it to current, you'll have to do some a/c replacement work and some other things.

OTOH, I've already rebuilt some older scens and played them with a/c damage turned on.

Uncle Mark's British Jets over Uganda (name is close, but not quite right!) was an interesting testing ground!

Mav

--Mav
User avatar
kevinkins
Posts: 2465
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:54 am

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by kevinkins »

ORIGINAL: cns180784

From what i've gathered if you want to enable an older scenario to include a/c damage modelling all you need to do is a deep rebuild to the latest DB right? if so it takes 2 seconds.

For the creator of any scenario especially if they've made tens or more to have to deep rebuild all of these will take time for them that they shouldnt need to do. They gave us the scenarios to enjoy in the first place so we can just rebuild them ourselves. As i said takes 2 seconds.

I am not sure what is meant by a "deep re-build" nor how a new or experienced designer can insure within "2 seconds" that the process (if one even exists) produces a new quality scenario within the intent of the original design. There has been no direction from the "top" on this.

You can rebuild old scenarios, but do not complain about the results achieved and never re-post them without the original designer's consent. If you can not contact them - do not post their modified work.

This thread is dealing with some very important open questions re: the launch of CoW. Keep the thoughts coming.

Respectfully.

Kevin
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
Alfred Thayer Mahan
cns180784
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:22 am

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by cns180784 »

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
ORIGINAL: cns180784

From what i've gathered if you want to enable an older scenario to include a/c damage modelling all you need to do is a deep rebuild to the latest DB right? if so it takes 2 seconds.

For the creator of any scenario especially if they've made tens or more to have to deep rebuild all of these will take time for them that they shouldnt need to do. They gave us the scenarios to enjoy in the first place so we can just rebuild them ourselves. As i said takes 2 seconds.

I am not sure what is meant by a "deep re-build" nor how a new or experienced designer can insure within "2 seconds" that the process (if one even exists) produces a new quality scenario within the intent of the original design. There has been no direction from the "top" on this.

You can rebuild old scenarios, but do not complain about the results achieved and never re-post them without the original designer's consent. If you can not contact them - do not post their modified work.

This thread is dealing with some very important open questions re: the launch of CoW. Keep the thoughts coming.

Respectfully.

Kevin
Ok so i wasnt sure which is why i asked. I just thought you load the scenario in editor mode and change the DB to the most recent and then enable a/c damage modelling in the realism options.
User avatar
Jorm
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:40 am
Location: Melbourne

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Jorm »

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

I have updated and uploaded three of my older Community scenarios to enable aircraft damage since all are aviation oriented. That said, the almost total lack of interest, expressed as downloads, means that I'm unlikely to bother uploading any more updates or scenarios period. Of course there's a possibility that they're just crappy scenarios, particularly when compared to the quality of the DLC scenarios thus far.

Everybody gets the editor to use and everybody can perform deep-rebuilds of community scenarios to add aircraft damage for their own use as they like. I had originally thought that upgrading and uploading one's community scenarios would be a good idea but no longer.

-C

Hey Randomizer, dont be disheartened, i get the same seeming lack of interest for my meagre submissions as well. I think the forum here is only a small subset of those who play the community scenarios and the feedback here is very positive and well thought out.

so i reckon you should keep at it !!!
Rory Noonan
Posts: 2418
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:53 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Rory Noonan »

Ok seemingly there is a misunderstanding here.

Rebuilding a scenario entails 4-5 clicks of the mouse and does not infringe at all on anyone's IP. it is covered on pages 79-90 of the manual included with the game, please look it up.
Image
User avatar
Gunner98
Posts: 5880
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:49 am
Location: The Great White North!
Contact:

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Gunner98 »

Rebuilding is one thing - and its quick.

Re-balancing is another - and its not.

Thanks for all your comments, thoughtful and helpful. Keep em coming.

B
Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/
User avatar
AlGrant
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:38 am

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by AlGrant »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Rebuilding is one thing - and its quick.
Re-balancing is another - and its not.
Thanks for all your comments, thoughtful and helpful. Keep em coming.

B

From a personal point of view, I'd be less inclined to re-play an older scenario (that I may have played a a few times) that has been rebuilt & re-balanced and be more likely to play a fresh scenario built around the new features.

That said, there is still absolutely nothing wrong with older scenarios that don't include the new features!
They still play as well as they ever did (perhaps better with speed & AI improvements), they will still present the player with the same challenge and can be enjoyed by those with or without the new features.


GOD'S EYE DISABLED.
slimatwar
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:22 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by slimatwar »

Do we know which (air oriented) scenarios are suitable for Aircraft Damage feature?
Can we add this feature without breaking it?
Rory Noonan
Posts: 2418
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:53 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by Rory Noonan »

If you have access to the editor and Cow features this is a question that the community is best poised to answer.

Give it a shot and let us know if you think there's room for improvement [:)]
Image
c3k
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:06 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by c3k »

Interest? Yes, very much.

Download? Not so much.

Here's the issue, for me: I have a LOT of things going on every day. I am very happy to download updates, but only as I have time. I do not have the time, or inclination, to search every scenario for updates before I play. (Sometimes, the only reason I can play the game is because I'm offline with no access to the internet.)

If scenario updates are included in the semi-annual community scenario download, then I'll be able to update them. (And, I'm grateful for the initial work and the follow-on work done by the authors!!!)

TL;DR: my CMANO update tempo is limited to Steam updates and once or twice-yearly database/scenario updates.

Not a lack of interest, a lack of time.
kch
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:07 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by kch »

I would love to see the scenarios updated as some of the “classic” scenarios have such a lot of work done in termos of ideas, events, oob etc that it would be a shame not to take advantage of the updates of the game and the new features. They are in any case subject to tweaks and improvements in the base game that may unbalance the scenarios. I understand that not all players have all dlcs but why limit yourself to the state of the game 5 years ago.
c3k
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:06 pm

RE: AC Damage etc in Older Community Scens?

Post by c3k »

Replying to apache85's comment about the ease of a deep-rebuild and the helpful pointing to page 79-90 in the manual.

First, thanks for the page reference. I'm looking at the manual and trying to follow along. This is...not as simple as it seems.

If you disagree, well, take this as feedback from customer. (Another moderator took umbrage at any criticism of the UI. If this is a sensitive subject, let me know. It's presented as an opportunity to improve the game.)

The manual skips a LOT of steps.

Here is what I've done, and where I'm stuck:

1. Open the game to the main menu.
2. Select, from the main menu, "Scenario Editor->Load Existing Scenario".
3. Okay, the goal is a deep-rebuild of EVERY scenario, using the manual's "multiple rebuild" method, 7.1.3
4. Which scenario do I choose? I must choose ONE to enter the editor. I chose "Tutorials/History of Air Combat".
5. The scenario opens up, apparently in editor mode? (I'm not sure how to tell.)
6. Using the instructions (and some extrapolation), I go to the menu bar and select, "Editor/Database/Upgrade Scenario to latest DB version".
7. That opens a multi-optioned window. The upper portion allows me to rebuild the CURRENT scenario, either SHALLOW or DEEP. The lower portion allows, "Deep-Rebuild All Scenarios in List".
8. My goal is the "Deep Rebuild" of ALL my scenarios. (I'm not concerned about balance, but accuracy in the sim.)
9. Selecting "Deep-Rebuild of All Scenarios in List" opens another window, with a windows file explorer view. I navigate to my scenarios directory/folder.
10. I cannot drag and drop from the open scenarios folder into the CMANO editor window. Hmm.
11. Digging down into the folders, I select Chains of War and the list shows all scenarios...with two files per. E.g., "Blue Dawn" and "Blue Dawn.scen".
12. I cannot select multiple files (shift-left click, or ctl-left click). I cannot drag multiple files, one at at time, into the editor window.
13. If I choose "Blue Dawn" (a configuration file 14kb), I get "No XML Data Found".
14. If I choose "Blue Dawn.scen", I also get "No XML Data Found".

I do not see how to do a multiple scenario deep rebuild.
I do not know how to do a SINGLE scenario deep rebuild using the "List" functionality as described. (Does "No XML Data Found" mean it failed or it worked???)

I play CMANO on 3 computers (using steam). Do I have to individually select each and every scenario across each computer to perform a deep rebuild? Or, can I just do it on one and copy the rebuilt scenarios onto the other 2 computers?

Whereas I very much appreciate the manual reference, I am still unable to perform multiple scenario rebuilds.

I am not being obtuse: I am describing, in detail, why the rebuild process is a mystery/pain for this user.

Thanks for any assist in understanding what I'm doing wrong.

Ken
Post Reply

Return to “Command: Modern Operations series”