Bug with straits and CD guns

[cardas]

When a task force moves through a strait hex-side the CD guns are supposed to be able to engage these ships. From my experience this does not however work correctly if you have no mines in the same hex as the CD guns/strait.

With mines in the hex:
The combat animation window opens, ships hits mines and/or CD guns trades fire with the ships, then the window closes.

Without mines in the hex:
The combat animation window opens, nothing happens, then the window closes.

I don't believe this is actually the intended behaviour in such a situation. There's nothing in the manual that suggest you'd have to have mines in the strait hex to get the CD guns to fire and there's no clear logical reason as to why it'd require mines either.

I tested this using the unofficial public beta 1126b patch in head-to-head mode.


(
Unrelated other bugs I've posted about earlier just so michalem might notice them if he pops by and fancies fixing some of this:
tm.asp?m=4174783 - TF movement out of map bounds
tm.asp?m=4070197 - Submarines does not attack despite having torpedo ammo
)

[BBfanboy]

Are you specifically asking about narrow straits?
The ones that are not narrow leave plenty of room for an enemy TF to transit at night without detection, and possibly out of range during the daytime too.

[cardas]

This affects both types. I'd agree with you that you could consider that the distance of at least some of the wide straits to be so large (roughly 20-60 km) that a TF could pass out of range of the guns if there aren't any blocking minefields. The same cannot be said about narrow straits (roughly 1-20 km). Especially when you consider that the guns aren't really restricted to being on only one side of the straits. I don't think a Japanese TF would have an easy time, say, sailing in from the Pacific to Seattle without running the risk of being fired upon regardless of whether mines are present or not.

Opening a combat window and the simply closing it again isn't exactly ideal behaviour when it comes to wide straits either.

[Aurorus]

There are more variables at play than the presence of mines or no mines. For example, send minesweepers through a straight hex with coastal guns. There is no combat window, but the minesweepers will usually be hit by coastal gunfire, though it will not open a combat window, and the full extent of the exchange may not appear in the combat report of the player who owns the coastal guns. Now send Battleships through the same hex, a combat window will open as the BBs exchange fire with the coastal guns. In both cases, however, the coastal guns will have fired.

Coastal guns do not always engage in straight hexes. It depends on visibility and time of day. Send ships through at night with no moonlight and the chance of engaging is much smaller than in daylight.

[Sardaukar]

Remember also, that if CD gun units are out of supply, they won't fire (IIRC).

[cardas]

This isn't just based on an idle observation. I've tested it using a custom pwhexe&scenario to check that this was actually the case.

A 20 ship surface combat task force (4 BBs, 2 CAs, 4 CLs, 10 DDs) running through both narrow and wide straits. Not once were they fired on when there weren't any mines in the hex that contained the strait. The combat window opens and in the left corner where you get the "NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE" etc. messages you get a "Naval Gun Fire at X" (X = base name) but, as I already said, nothing actually happens. Add mines to the straits and, boom, instantly the CD guns will actually start firing at the ships passing through.

There is no combat window, but the minesweepers will usually be hit by coastal gunfire, though it will not open a combat window, and the full extent of the exchange may not appear in the combat report of the player who owns the coastal guns.

The tests I've run were done in head to head mode so I can say with certainty that they didn't receive any damage at all.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: cardas

This isn't just based on an idle observation. I've tested it using a custom pwhexe&scenario to check that this was actually the case.

A 20 ship surface combat task force (4 BBs, 2 CAs, 4 CLs, 10 DDs) running through both narrow and wide straits. Not once were they fired on when there weren't any mines in the hex that contained the strait. The combat window opens and in the left corner where you get the "NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE" etc. messages you get a "Naval Gun Fire at X" (X = base name) but, as I already said, nothing actually happens. Add mines to the straits and, boom, instantly the CD guns will actually start firing at the ships passing through.

There is no combat window, but the minesweepers will usually be hit by coastal gunfire, though it will not open a combat window, and the full extent of the exchange may not appear in the combat report of the player who owns the coastal guns.

The tests I've run were done in head to head mode so I can say with certainty that they didn't receive any damage at all.

Which straight hex are you referring to? I know for certain that I have run several different types of ships through Bataan into Manila with the allied coastal guns still there: both with mines at Bataan and without, and the presence of mines had no effect on whether the coastal guns fired or not. At night, in low moonlight, they often did not fire. With high moonlight, they usually fired.

[cardas]

As I said I used a custom pwhexe. E.g. I modified the underlying map data to add some straits in a clustered area so it'd be faster and easier to test it. The task force moved through the straits during both high and low moonlight and even during the day without being fired upon when there were no mines present.

[cardas]

Double post but...

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Which straight hex are you referring to? I know for certain that I have run several different types of ships through Bataan into Manila with the allied coastal guns still there: both with mines at Bataan and without, and the presence of mines had no effect on whether the coastal guns fired or not. At night, in low moonlight, they often did not fire. With high moonlight, they usually fired.

I prefer to test stuff with a custom scenario/pwhexe so that the turn processes quicker and I can more easily control for the stuff I want. Just to make sure I didn't mess up anything I went ahead and did an extra test for your specific example though.

Stock scenario 1, played in head to head mode. Started out by standing down all air groups and task forces on both sides. Then I sent in a bunch of Japanese minesweepers to sweep Bataan and Manila. Once all mines were swept I sent a surface task force to patrol back and forth through the strait (so between Manila and one hex west of Bataan). I let that go one for about half a month (so ~15 turns), then as a finale I sent a bunch of the pre-made amphibious task forces that otherwise invades places like Kota Bharu to land directly at Manila. In addition the Kongo TF and the Mogami TF were sent along to bombard Manila. The move by these task forces through the strait at Bataan on their way to Manila was done in 95+% moonlight (don't remember exactly what it was).

I of course lost minesweepers to the guns while sweeping. Once the mines were gone however at no point did any guns fire on the Japanese ships. Neither on the surface task force that had patrolled through the strait for half a month nor the multitude of task forces that were involved in the grand finale. So my experience contradicts your claim that the guns at Bataan would fire even when there are no mines present - though you only say there were no mines at Bataan. Maybe there were mines at Manila and that is enough to trigger proper coastal gun fire? I haven't tested that specific case.

Regardless this strengthens my claim that there is a bug.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: cardas

Double post but...

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Which straight hex are you referring to? I know for certain that I have run several different types of ships through Bataan into Manila with the allied coastal guns still there: both with mines at Bataan and without, and the presence of mines had no effect on whether the coastal guns fired or not. At night, in low moonlight, they often did not fire. With high moonlight, they usually fired.

I prefer to test stuff with a custom scenario/pwhexe so that the turn processes quicker and I can more easily control for the stuff I want. Just to make sure I didn't mess up anything I went ahead and did an extra test for your specific example though.

Stock scenario 1, played in head to head mode. Started out by standing down all air groups and task forces on both sides. Then I sent in a bunch of Japanese minesweepers to sweep Bataan and Manila. Once all mines were swept I sent a surface task force to patrol back and forth through the strait (so between Manila and one hex west of Bataan). I let that go one for about half a month (so ~15 turns), then as a finale I sent a bunch of the pre-made amphibious task forces that otherwise invades places like Kota Bharu to land directly at Manila. In addition the Kongo TF and the Mogami TF were sent along to bombard Manila. The move by these task forces through the strait at Bataan on their way to Manila was done in 95+% moonlight (don't remember exactly what it was).

I of course lost minesweepers to the guns while sweeping. Once the mines were gone however at no point did any guns fire on the Japanese ships. Neither on the surface task force that had patrolled through the strait for half a month nor the multitude of task forces that were involved in the grand finale. So my experience contradicts your claim that the guns at Bataan would fire even when there are no mines present - though you only say there were no mines at Bataan. Maybe there were mines at Manila and that is enough to trigger proper coastal gun fire? I haven't tested that specific case.

Regardless this strengthens my claim that there is a bug.

This is with the Beta patch from last September or October? Interesting. I just started a game using that Beta (which I have not used before). This may be a bug introduced in the latest beta and should be fixed.

[GetAssista]

Yeah, this is the (most likely) bug that also had some traction in recent AARs.
AFAIR Lowpe had troubles with lethargic CD guns along Yangtze river not confronting Allied TFs at all. And river is narrow straights, far less spacious than most of sea straights are