German navy, including subs, is worthless

[MemoryLeak]

I've played the SC series from the beginning. And some things never change. It is senseless to
spend one penny on U-Boats.

The Italian Navy should just be left out of the game entirely. As soon as war is declared it takes about
6 seconds for every Italian ship to go to the bottom. So I cleverly sailed three U-boats into the Med. To try and even the score a little against the British.

No activity from the British navy in months but as soon as my three U-boats arrived near Tripoli(silent mode), but still several hexes from
any shore, they were immediately attacked by every ship and carrier within a thousand miles and decimated.
Give me a f**king break.

And it happens EVERYWHERE my subs go in the Atlantic Ocean. You know how large that is??? But they are immediately surrounded
by god knows how many destroyers.

The U-boat campaign and the Strategic bombing campaign is broken. Unless a heck of a lot more MPP's are allotted
then there can't be even a slightly realistic bomber or sub portion of this game.

And I don't want to hear about the person who sinks 50 ships with each U-Boat. If you do then I submit that it is
done in a gamey fashion and not in a realistic WWII type of Battle of the Atlantic where the Allies were in
deep trouble until about 1943 when the momentum shifted to the convoy system. I just wish I knew
how to program a game and I would allot MPP that could only be used specifically for the U-boats and the
strategic bombers because they cost way too much to buy and to keep repairing every turn. Unless you want
to stop buying ground units and research and diplomacy.

[bullet911]

are you playing single player with FOW off?
I could somewhat agree with the battle of atlantic been rather easy for the allies against subs in PBEM once a sub is found and 3/4/5 or more ships can get to it once they have attacked they can just simply move in a certain way around the sub(not saying how exactly)and then when the sub moves the next turn its stopped by surprise contact, its has no chance of getting away
Maybe give subs +1 extra spotting?

[demyansk]

Agree, just started a sp campaign

[crispy131313]

I've played the SC series from the beginning. And some things never change. It is senseless to spend one penny on U-Boats.

German receives many more MPP then the UK, the combination of convoy losses and reinforcing Destroyer units to hunt down the Subs can really set the Allied War Plans behind schedule, especially if Egypt is sinking MPPs in tandem.

The Italian Navy should just be left out of the game entirely. As soon as war is declared it takes about 6 seconds for every Italian ship to go to the bottom. So I cleverly sailed three U-boats into the Med. To try and even the score a little against the British.

Sending all the UK Carriers to mass sink the Italian Navy upon war declaration is just an invitation for Sealion, believe me I've lived it.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/ ... is/?page=2

No activity from the British navy in months but as soon as my three U-boats arrived near Tripoli(silent mode), but still several hexes from any shore, they were immediately attacked by every ship and carrier within a thousand miles and decimated. Give me a f**king break.

And it happens EVERYWHERE my subs go in the Atlantic Ocean. You know how large that is??? But they are immediately surrounded by god knows how many destroyers.

It's really hard to picture exactly what could be improved from such blanket descriptions, but is there any possibility of German Surface fleet to also be in the Atlantic? Just a pair of Battle Cruisers can sink a destroyer in retaliation.

The U-boat campaign and the Strategic bombing campaign is broken. Unless a heck of a lot more MPP's are allotted then there can't be even a slightly realistic bomber or sub portion of this game.

And I don't want to hear about the person who sinks 50 ships with each U-Boat. If you do then I submit that it is done in a gamey fashion and not in a realistic WWII type of Battle of the Atlantic where the Allies were in deep trouble until about 1943 when the momentum shifted to the convoy system. I just wish I knew how to program a game and I would allot MPP that could only be used specifically for the U-boats and the strategic bombers because they cost way too much to buy and to keep repairing every turn. Unless you want to stop buying ground units and research and diplomacy.

Some tweaks I have chosen to do recently is increasing the reinforcement costs of Surface Fleets from 5% to 10% of every nation except the UK and USA. I've done this to achieve a few desired effects:

1) Reduce the ability of France to be sacrificed against the Italian Navy. I've also lowered the beginning strength of all French Battleships (including in Que) to 5, and Heavy Cruisers to 8. It roughly costs 175 MPP to restore the Battleships to full strength meaning it is a choice between defending Paris or attacking the Italians head on. I think the ability to have France suicide against Italy is a huge problem, I have found in my limited experience that this change really hinders France's ability to do so successfully.

2) German Subs are much more valuable in comparison to the German surface fleet as they are much more cost effective.

3) Canadian and Polish destroyers are more expensive to repair. The same can be said of other minors whose Navies have value (Spain, Sweden etc.) after increasing reinforcement cost.

I've also added via Decision the ability to scrap a Battleship in production for each of Germany and Britain in favor of subs/destroyers. The subs arrive much earlier then the Destroyers for balance reasons. Italy also has the option to deploy subs in the Atlantic (BETASOM) or in the Mediterranean. OK, I'm clearly getting off topic as I personally like to make a lot of tweaks to suit my own preferred difficulty level, so I'll get to the point:

If I could make a tweak to the default campaign I would increase the reinforcement cost of all surface vessels (which means to exclude Subs) from 5% to 10% across ALL nations. The result: Subs would be much more cost effective in comparison to other naval units, the cost of Destroyer loses would actually put pressure on the UK, and France would not be able to easily sacrifice her fleet.

-------
Also, I'm interested in knowing what game are you playing? AI or PBEM? This could also have an impact on any advice or feedback/discussion.

[petrosian]

I agree. As soon as a sub is spotted it is dead. Even if it dives. Against the AI you have a chance but against a human player it is surrounded. A tweak could be that if it dives it hides for the rest of the turn.

[n0kn0k]

Vs the A.I. I can easily win in the med, sinking 2 battleships, a carrier and some smaller stuff. Nothing gamey, just invest in naval research and upgrade the Italian navy first.

[vonik]

This is no more true .
Against the AI the German navy always wins (provided that the player invests in subs) .
Against a human player it is more difficult but feasible .
You just need to remember that all the allied carriers and battleships are useless sitting ducks against the U boats .
What matters are the destroyers so if you achieve to put a dent in that (e.g loose less U boats than the ennemy looses destroyers) then you'll win the battle of Atlantic .
With the last patch, U boats in silent mode are quite difficult to kill and it is practically impossible to do so in 1 turn anymore even with 5 or 6 attacks .

However I agree about the EARLY uselessness of the RM . In the initial stage of the war you just need to stay in ports . However once Italy haa Navy research in 2 and a small support of German subs, you are more than a match for the RN especially because they can't reinforce better than 8 while the RM can go to 10 .
The difficulty is just to survive untill end 41 .

[IrishGuards]

I think the biggest issue here may be utilization of subs and raiders,
now from my perspective one of the best features of this game is the random set up and placements of units when DoW
happens, you could also randomize the starting positions of uboats, which would then lead to a more fair start for germany.
even im guilty of raiding every turn and hence being spotted easily, always hunting and not being silent is huge mistake for germany
IG

[X(]

[BillRunacre]

Here's a thought, gingerbread has posited in this thread that Italy should start with a chit invested in Naval Warfare:

tm.asp?m=4261333&mpage=1&#4261333

The Italian navy wasn't bad, but it wasn't really used as aggressively as it could have been in the Med.

Would giving Italy a chit in Naval Warfare work in redressing the balance, or would it swing things too much the other way?

[vonik]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Here's a thought, gingerbread has posited in this thread that Italy should start with a chit invested in Naval Warfare:

tm.asp?m=4261333&mpage=1�

The Italian navy wasn't bad, but it wasn't really used as aggressively as it could have been in the Med.

Would giving Italy a chit in Naval Warfare work in redressing the balance, or would it swing things too much the other way?

If Italy had Naval Warfare, it'd anihilate the few Brits there are in Mediterranean .
Actually I think the biggest problem is the gamey suicide of the French navy so that the RN doesn't need to engage much and only close in for the kill .
What would balance better would be to make the French navy much less efficient against the RM .
Another way would be to prevent Italian DoW before Paris is captured .

[MemoryLeak]

No I do not play with FOW off. It is always on.

I usually play the traditional way and try to conduct a standard U-boat campaign. Hit and run. Hunt mode on one turn and silent the next turn. Always moving around.
I kept track of it on one occasion and after a couple of years I had amassed 1600 Allied MPP's sunk. But then the subs were all destroyed.
(And the subs were at level 3.) By that time Operation Barbarossa was such a drain on MPP's that I couldn't replace my U-boat fleet.

So just for grins I tried a surprise attack by sending three U-boats to the Med because the British carriers
that were pounding my ground units and making it impossible to use my air units against the British ground troops.
But like I said I was instantly pounced as I maneuvered my wolfpack into position.

And I am certainly not getting an over-abundance of MPP's. I would like to see an allotment of MPP's, by the game, just
for a Strategic bombing and U-boat campaign to add another dimension of immersion into the game. Right now it
is mainly a slug-fest on the Eastern Front. The additional MPP's could be restricted and only used for Strategic Bombers and Subs.
There are hundreds of different settings that can be used now, how about adding one more for my idea?

I think that if the time frame was reduced to one week turns that would slow down naval movement and stop some of the swarming by destroyers.
And another modification could be if you send your ships more than x- number of hexes in one turn, your supply level of that ship drops by one supply
level for each additional hex you travel in a single turn..Or big hits on morale and readiness. So you have to decide if it is worth it to rush your entire destroyer fleet to one location.

Or make the supply level for ships to drop each turn at sea because as it is now a ship can stay at sea the entire five years of the war if it
doesn't enter into combat. Is this realistic?

[IrishGuards]

the last point is key, the allies can easily just strip the med of french land units, Uk replaces the AA in malta
w a gar, gib and cyprus gar also leave, Italy goes beserk % wise, by the time DoW on the lows its grim for Italy
the french units in the med should be territorials of those countries, now we can argue the specifics, but
after having wiped out 24 french land units and holding paris, I think these french units from the med are being
included into part of the % to make france not go Vichy, which it didnt !
the suicide of the french fleet and the intrusion into Italian waters previously to any DoW should give Italy the choice of when and if to go War
make the allies DoW Italy to do the damage, even then some would.
depends on the diplomacy %
IG
[8|]

[IrishGuards]

I think this is a great idea, but I also think without going that far, which I would like as an axis player.
why not just go about upgrading a few ships to there actual status, not just for Italy but go through the entire OOB
of the navies and have some upgraded which arent .. ??
IG

[X(]

[TheBattlefield]

I think that a fundamental key to the improvement of naval warfare is a separation of the hitherto hard-coded tactical/operational movement for naval units. An upgrade of the cruise mode (provided with supply deductions) to a "more necessary" movement type when relocating units over longer distances and a simultaneous reduction of the tactical radius of action should relativize many of the problems described here.
[8D]

[Seminole]

You can't attack after long movement, I think the issue is more one of the Allied ability to bracket and just wear out a sub.

I'd love to see some AARs with naval action. I managed to get good use from my navy playing against the AI as both sides and so far in my sole PBEM, but I think I caught my opponent trying tactics that worked against the AI.

I'm not reckless with the French fleet, as I've seen France surrender before losing Paris when enough units were destroyed.

[Mantis]

Put all French Med & Colonial forces to 'frozen' until the Axis are within 3 hexes of Paris. (I've been gaming WWII since the 70s and have seen that type of rule in several games). If that isn't possible via normal game mechanics, it could be finagled as a scripted event.

Alternatively, levy some nasty penalties on France for severely unrealistic action. Perhaps NM penalties can be increased considerably & progressively for each additional naval unit that is damaged/lost... Perhaps a massive hit to the US war entry percentage when the Allies drop a DoW on Italy, as the US neutralists consider the French and Brits to be acting just as opportunistically as Germany. This could also carry over to other neutrals - swing them all a certain (healthy) percentage towards the Axis as a penalty for warmongering. Perhaps the German minors might activate. Allied neutrals (Iceland/Greenland?) might stay neutral, denying the Allies these bases. What about a permanent hit to US relations - they no longer offer lend lease as early, or perhaps the destroyer agreement is never offered ("If you idiots are just going to suicide your ships...")

Perhaps an event could be offered to Germany to 'send emergency aid to Italy to counter Allied aggression'; a fighter, tac bomber, and a pair of naval bombers sent to Italy for a cost of X MPP times Y many turns. (A-historical actions call for a-historical responses?)...

Just some random thoughts on other potential ways to address the situation.

[MemoryLeak]

It's no wonder basic changes are never made in this game, No one can agree on anything.

Think about it for a minute. The goal is to limit the ability of the Allied navy to be everywhere at once.
No matter where a German ship or sub is spotted a half dozen Allied ships will pounce.

So make the Allied player have to decide if he wants to lower the supply, morale and readiness of his
ships by always responding long distances to every sighting. Make him have to carefully chose which
sightings he wants to respond to or risk having his units being depleted when he might really need them.
And this also forces him to return his ships to port regularly to keep them supplied and rested. Like you have
to do in real life. No more stationing destroyers at strategic locations for the entire war.

So your ships and subs can still travel all over but if you steam full speed(maximum hexes) you pay a price.
This would simulate the wear and tear of always dashing around the Atlantic steaming full speed the entire time
while on patrol. So put a penalty on going anything over half the total number of hexes currently allowed.
You make the decision. You can wear out your ships and crews or you can use some tactical planning and try
to out guess your opponent. Like real Admirals were required to do.

Or just continue as is like a kid's video game trying to shoot as many targets as you can in a totally
unrealistic and childish manner.

[battlevonwar]

I'm on 5th PBEM game that has reached 1942ish and pushing beyond.(2 Allied, 3 Axis) The Italian Navy has issues holding cause the Italians cannot afford the Production to strengthen/upgrade and utilize it without German Air and U-boats. You look at Naval Forces later as the game progresses the UK has near 30 Naval Units of various kinds. Italians spot for transports, period. Surface action is best with U-boats or German Air combo.

Giving them a chit in Naval Warfare probably would help usually when I come up against an equal Royal Navy Vessel it's a lopsided situation. like 6-3 ...

U-boats in the Med would also help, forcing the Allies to divert Destroyers from the Atlantic making that a better campaign and putting them in them in the Med to help fend off things. That way the UK Destroyer Force is divided rather than focused!

[Leadwieght]

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

It's no wonder basic changes are never made in this game, No one can agree on anything.

Think about it for a minute. The goal is to limit the ability of the Allied navy to be everywhere at once.
No matter where a German ship or sub is spotted a half dozen Allied ships will pounce.

So make the Allied player have to decide if he wants to lower the supply, morale and readiness of his
ships by always responding long distances to every sighting. Make him have to carefully chose which
sightings he wants to respond to or risk having his units being depleted when he might really need them.
And this also forces him to return his ships to port regularly to keep them supplied and rested. Like you have
to do in real life. No more stationing destroyers at strategic locations for the entire war.

So your ships and subs can still travel all over but if you steam full speed(maximum hexes) you pay a price.
This would simulate the wear and tear of always dashing around the Atlantic steaming full speed the entire time
while on patrol. So put a penalty on going anything over half the total number of hexes currently allowed.
You make the decision. You can wear out your ships and crews or you can use some tactical planning and try
to out guess your opponent. Like real Admirals were required to do.

Or just continue as is like a kid's video game trying to shoot as many targets as you can in a totally
unrealistic and childish manner.

[Leadwieght]

Sorry, meant to reply to part of ML's post and made a mistake with cut and paste.

It's not been my experience as either the Allied player or the Axis player, playing against human or AI, that German subs are always surrounded and destroyed by a swarm of Allied ships. Sometimes it happens, but usually as a result of a mistake by the German player, like always staying too close to the Western Approaches where the RN can repair and re-supply quickly.

A clever German player can use the KM to draw the RN out. A smart Allied player knows not to take the bait every time, but can pay a price in terms of lost MPPs. In different games, I've made those mistakes and I've made those smart moves

The naval game is of necessity a bit more abstract compared to the land game--it's NOT a naval miniatures simulation. But in my experience when well played, it does force both sides to make strategic decisions analogous to those made in the real war.