Supply consumption - explanation

[Yaab]

OK, I think I have misunderstood supply consumption.

Below are some numbers. The numbers are for a static situation with no fighting, construction, army expansion etc.

Let's, say total Chinese production of supply per month is 131,000 supplies.

Bases (or rather LCUs and airgroups stationed in the bases) in China require 36,700 supplies. Bases try to gather three times as much, so they hold about 110,000 supplies per month.

But I have also LCUs outside bases. Their supply need is 35,000. They seem to gather just the number needed, not twice or thrice that much as is the case with bases. I guess this number is per month too.

Thus, total supply consumption for bases and LCUs in the field would be 145,000 (110,000 + 35,000). It seems I have a deficit of - 14,000 supplies each month (131,000 produced - 145,000 consumed = -14,000 supplies lacking). Wow!

But the deficit is no a deficit at all.Why?

LCUs in bases cost 36,700 per month. The ones in the field cost 35,000. Together the upkeep cost for both is almost 72,000 supplies. This amount is lost each month (mostly food, some medicine, some bullets etc.)

So each month, I produce 131,000 supplies and 72,000 is lost for good. I have 59,000 left. How? Bases just try to collect x 3 the amount needed by the LCUs in bases, but the supplies are just gathered and not consumed by LCUs in bases.

Now, it means I have actually 59,000 supplies left each month in China. That amounts to 710,000 supplies per year. Remember, this is for hypothetical situation with no fighting, army expansion, construction etc.

Given the above, is my math correct?

Thanks.

[KenchiSulla]

Seems to be correct yes.

[PaxMondo]

When units don't have enough supply, devices will change from ready to disorganized, and eventually will "die". In china the allies suffer from this a lot due to the supply deficit. You have all these huge corps sitting around with low AV as they have not enough supply to repair devices. One of the early war allied challenges in China is to get the supply in balance with the number of troops; either fewer troops or more supply. If you are able to solve this, China becomes over-powering against the IJ. Rarely happens though until late war ... kinda historically accurate in that way.

[Yaab]

But if situation is static (no fighting at all, no bases changing hands, no reinforcements etc.) I will have accumulated a surplus of 2,400,000 supply points by June 1945 ( 3,5 years x 710,000 supply) as the Chinese.

[PaxMondo]

units consume supply every day to stay active ..

[KenchiSulla]

Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..

+1

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..

+1.

Of course first you have to ground everybody (movement uses a lot more supply than sitting), ground all a/c (no training allowed either), and especially no replacements (sorry about all of those empty Chinese formations). Now supply will accumulate until it has to move to less fortunate locations and thus pays a LOT in supply movement attrition. Of course any that doesn't move will suffer spoilage attrition.

[Mike Solli]

Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news. [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news. [:D]

Yeah, allies in China in '42 is challenging. Kinda like IJ in China in '45. [:D][:D][:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news. [:D]

Yeah, allies in China in '42 is challenging. Kinda like IJ in China in '45. [:D][:D][:D]

I think the goal is that there is no China in 1945...

[KenchiSulla]

The China game is turning into "let's hide in Chungking or we all die" if you play without stacking rules..

[Alfred]

Yaab,

Your OP is too simplistic if you really want to know how supply consumption operates as it conflates consumption with movement. As a starting point I suggest you read my Logistics 101 thread:

tm.asp?m=2878790&mpage=1&key=supply&#2878790

supplemented by the following points.

1. The supply requirement listed in bases and LCUs is an estimate of the monthly requirement. It is not really an accurate prediction of what will be consumed over the following 30 days.

2. The listed supply requirement can and does fluctuate daily.

3. Command HQs add a "secret" 25k to the listed supply requirement. It is well known that such HQs try to draw an additional 25k supply to the base but players tend to overlook it is coded as adding to the supply requirements thresholds.

4. A base will only export to another base if it has an excess of supply. The threshold for excess is 3x the listed supply requirement.

5. A base which is short of 3x it's listed supply requirement may import supply from a base which has an excess. How often it can import is determined by the supply path cost.

6. Supply which moves overland between bases can be lost up to 20%. Again the supply path cost comes into play.

7. Bases with [(2x) + (100)] their listed supply requirements become supply depots for LCU replacements. Hence a base which holds between 2x and 3x it's listed supply requirements can see a fluctuation in its supply depot as supply is consumed in providing replacements. LCUs in a friendly base taking replacements will only draw down supply from that single base but LCUs out in the field or in an enemy base can draw down from any friendly base which meets the threshold and the supply path cost (minimum supply path = 10).

8. Any combat involving an LCU will see that LCU's supply consumption increase. Even a LCU which has no flak but is air bombed, in other words is is purely the recipient of an attack and does not fight back, is considered to be in combat. The additional consumption depends on the severity of combat but can amount up to a maximum of double it's normal non active supply consumption.

9. As LCUs recover disabled devices, their supply consumption increases.

Alfred

[Yaab]

Many thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

The reason I have started this thread is because I mistook supply requirements with supply consumption. Looking from the point of supply requirements, China is starving, but looking from the point of supply consumption the situation isn't that bad. It seems that supply distribution is a bigger problem in China than supply production.

Is the below situation optimal setting for China?

a) move as many of your LCUs to the front as possible. Any unit sitting in a base between the production centers and the front creates a supply bottleneck (base gathers x 3 supply needed) - less supply at the battlefront. If there is a garrison requiremnt in a base, garrison tha base with units that have smallest supply footrpints - BFs, construction regts, light corps etc.

b) create as much supply as close to the frontline ( it may be beneficial to repair i.e LI in Changsha) and commit to defend those places

c) at the frontlines, move as many units to defend outside bases, so frontline bases can easily push the supplies to them (possibly sit in a hex with a good road next to a base).

[Numdydar]

In a word No.

You seem to forget that supply that moves around has a percentage of that supply 'lost' simplly by moving. So you will actually lose MORE supply by doing what you suggest. This is why units sit in bases so that the supply they need does not increase because they are out in the wilds somewhere due to the transportation costs of just getting the supplies to them..

[Yaab]

I guess there is no easy way to see how much supply is lost during movement, that is why I forget about it.

If I produce 130,000 supplies per month in China, how much will be lost on average due to movement? Is 10% of monthly produce a good guess?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I guess there is no easy way to see how much supply is lost during movement, that is why I forget about it.

If I produce 130,000 supplies per month in China, how much will be lost on average due to movement? Is 10% of monthly produce a good guess?

Already answered in post #13.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Many thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

The reason I have started this thread is because I mistook supply requirements with supply consumption. Looking from the point of supply requirements, China is starving, but looking from the point of supply consumption the situation isn't that bad. It seems that supply distribution is a bigger problem in China than supply production.

Is the below situation optimal setting for China?

a) move as many of your LCUs to the front as possible. Any unit sitting in a base between the production centers and the front creates a supply bottleneck (base gathers x 3 supply needed) - less supply at the battlefront. If there is a garrison requiremnt in a base, garrison tha base with units that have smallest supply footrpints - BFs, construction regts, light corps etc.

b) create as much supply as close to the frontline ( it may be beneficial to repair i.e LI in Changsha) and commit to defend those places

c) at the frontlines, move as many units to defend outside bases, so frontline bases can easily push the supplies to them (possibly sit in a hex with a good road next to a base).

Yes and no.[:)]

Distribution is a major issue due to the relatively poor transportation network in China. Mind you, Symon has developed an even poorer internal transportation network intended for use with the DaBabes family of mods.

1. Look at Urumchi. It is one of the three Chinese bases which produces oil and refines it to fuel. It is 24 main road hexes away from the nearest "industrial" city which is Lanchow. Because the supply path between the two cities is 100 - 72 = 28, excess supply and raw materials would move only once per week. In reality it doesn't even move that often because Lanchow has no heavy Industry, thus no need to import fuel and its own raw material production adequately covers the necessary feedstock for its own industry. Thus Urimchi's surplus supply and raw materials would be required much further away than Sian (which is the next nearest industrial city to Urimchi but like Lanchow, adequately serviced by its own domestic raw material production and if absolutely required, can import from Lanchow). Note that the additional distance beyond Lanchow to Sian is a further reduction in the supply path from 28 down to only 15.

The fuel and excess oil produced in Urumchi is therefore too far away to be used in the industrial heartland of China which is Chungking/Chengtu/Kunming/Changsha.

2. You cannot just simply vacate the cities.

(a) Garrison requirements not met do cut the supply path completely, thus worsening the distribution problem.

(b) Airbases are found only in cities, not in the countryside. You cannot afford to completely cede total control of the air to the enemy. Enemy air assets must be forced to remain in China and not be sent off to other theatres where their contribution to the enemy war effort may be considerably more valuable. Plus the Chinese airforce is not a complete loss; it can be, and it should be, used intelligently; not just to create CAP traps but also to provide recon and achieve other tasks.

(c) Not all terrain outside cities is good for fighting a defensive campaign. Quite often the best terrain plus the usual better base fortifications than that achievable out in the field, means that the stand should be made in the city itself.

(d) Much of the Chinese supply comes from daily auto generation and this is automatically lost if the city falls. Units within the city have first call on this auto supply.

3. I have said for a long time that the mantra which is commonly trotted out about repairing facilities and the need to have a 500 day repayment period otherwise it isn't worthwhile to repair them, is too simplistic and often just wrong. There are many factors which need to be taken into account in determining whether to repair industry, so yes, there are circumstances where it does make sense to repair industry even if the 500 pay back period does not apply. Maybe one day I'll detail just how complex the issue of repairing industry really is.

4. I have already pointed out in post #13 above that as disabled devices repair, the consumption of supply increases accordingly. The more you position your Chinese forces to improve their access to supply, the more supply they will need. This is completely independent of any manoeuvring you undertake, or any combat imposed upon you by the enemy. You just have to accept that the Chinese theatre is unlike all other Allied theatres where availability of supply is usually not a problem.


There are many threads extant which discuss how to handle China. This current thread, notwithstanding it's title and how the OP was framed, is really just another thread on the same subject. One cannot just divorce supply from all the relevant factors in assessing the problems posed by the Chinese theatre. More importantly, one cannot devise a good plan without taking into account what the opponent is doing.

Alfred

[Yaab]

Ok, there is a well stocked base. Its supply requirement is 500, because there is a static LCU inside a base. Base tries to collect 1500 (500 x 3) supplies. The base has a total stockpile of supply of 4500.

In a hex next to the base there is another LCU. The hex is a mountain hex with no road/railine connecting it to the base. I hit "5" on computer keyobard and the game shows "75" in the mountain hex, thus the unit in the field should be getting supplies three time per week - medium pull(45 -89 range) and long pull (0-10).

Now, how much supplies does a base move? It has an excess of 3000 supplies, the LCU needs 1500. Does it move 1500 supplies in one go or is there some capacity limit (let's assume the base has no max draw limits)? Does it send supply in increments of 100, 500, 1000? Since the LCU needs 1500 supplies and get supplies three times a week, maybe it gets supplies 10 times a month in increments of 150 (150 x 10 = 1500)?

With each such supply movement how much supply is lost? Manual p.189 gives me a terrain supply cost of 25. That corresponds to "75" (100 - 25 =75) I see on the map hovering over that mountain hex. If the base sends i.e 100 supplies three times a week to the LCU, how much supply will be lost each time? 25%? 20% (maximum threshold as per post 13 point 6) or some random between 1-20%?

[Yaab]

2. You cannot just simply vacate the cities.

(a) Garrison requirements not met do cut the supply path completely, thus worsening the distribution problem.

Alfred, I think I have misunderstood the supply routine once again. Let's see.

The Chungking basin is the industrial heartland of China. Let's assume I want to move as much supply from the Chungking basin to to the Changsha area where heavy fighting takes place. I thought that vacating a string of bases between Chungking and Changsha would be the best way to achieve that. Why? Every unit sitting in a base between Chungking and Changsha means such a base will collect x 3 supplies, thus releasing fewer supplies to the front (bases only export supplies to another base if they have more than x3 on hand). Once vacated, all bases between Chunkging and Changhsa should move supplies every day (they are all on rail and main road hexes), which can be seen by pressing "5" for each base along the the Chungking - Changsha road - the cost is just in 91-95 range.

I thought I was creating a supply superhighway, yet you say, that if there is no supply need in the intermediary bases NO supply will move at all? That I have to indicate ( probably by posting some small LCUs or aircraft detachemnts in those cities) that there is a supply need? My thinking was that if I have producer (Chungking) > empty bases' supply highway > terminus (Changsha) + LCUs around Changsha, more supply can be realeased for the frontline. If it is your reasoning which is correct , then the Chinese will not be able to use their supply surplus to the fullest, because some of the supply will inevitably be trapped in the bottleneck bases along the road with bases happily gathering supplies for idle garrisons whose only role is to indicate to the code, that the supplies should be pushed in their direction.


BTW, if Chungking is selected and "5" is pressed, then tha value in Changsha hex is 69, meaning Chungking should push its supplies to Changsha three times a week even if no intermediary bases were present. Is there a hex limit to how far supply can be pushed? Do we need intermediary bases between Chungking and Changsha for successful delivery of supply in Changsha?