Is night air combat broken?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Squamry
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Is night air combat broken?

Post by Squamry »

In both my games as Japan I'm using non-night fighter squadrons against incoming heavy bomber raids to disrupt them. Ok I'm not expecting great results and the disruption to them is more important than the casualties. However I have noticed that fighter losses tend to be at least as high as in the day time and bomber losses almost non existant. Below is an extreme example from a recent turn:

Night Air attack on Hong Kong , at 77,61

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 17


Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 5 destroyed

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
248th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes

The unit in question is not that exerienced (av 50) but has high air and defn stats. My gut feel that having any one of these stats less than 60 increases the losses. I'm losing fighters each night and doing no damage.

So is the interaction broken or is there a way for Japanese squadrons to be more effective? Typically I'm putting units on 10k or 15k feets

TIA
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dr.hal
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by dr.hal »

Experience can certainly have an impact. Especially late in the war where bombers can have lots of experience. What date are you in for this game?
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

Also, did those losses happen due to defensive fire?
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dr.hal
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Also, did those losses happen due to defensive fire?
Good point! As inexperience pilots at night would certainly have high operational losses.
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

It's about 30% losses. Pilots with relatively low Exp can do poorly and rack up loss rates like this without even reaching their targets. Getting lost at night and running out of fuel, flying into the side of a mountain, and so on and so forth.
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JocMeister
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by JocMeister »

I thought it was pretty much established that defensive fire from bombers does not take into account that its night? So they fire with the same accuracy as they do in daylight? Might have gotten it wrong though?
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

That wasn't my point. They can't be fired on if they miss their intercept rolls.
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Squamry
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Squamry »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Experience can certainly have an impact. Especially late in the war where bombers can have lots of experience. What date are you in for this game?
One in Feb/Mar 43 and another in May 43
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dr.hal
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I thought it was pretty much established that defensive fire from bombers does not take into account that its night?
How was this "established" JocMeister? I've never heard of that possibility. Hal
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obvert
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by obvert »

I would never use my high experience pilots against bombers at night in regular day fighters. It'll be just losses. Intercept or no intercept, if I send up 40 non-NF fighters against even 50-60 4E I will lose roughly 30-40% of the fighters for virtually no losses to the bombers.

Night fighters perform slightly better, but are still lost in high number due to what Jocke mentioned above, that the defensive fire is seemingly the same as during the day.
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MrBlizzard
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by MrBlizzard »

I'm experiencing that fighter losses in the night are much heavier than during daylight, even with good pilots and fighters.
In RL I read some american reports that showed how difficult was to even have a conctat at night , also with night fighters at the beginning.
A real fight would end without any losses for both parts.
So I believe it's better not putting in air fighters at night, at least you save thier pilots.
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

Night intercepts were difficult enough with an established GCI network (in Europe). Now imagine doing it without one. Using day fighters for night fighter work is a waste of resources.
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seille
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by seille »

Gunner accuracy same during night and day sounds not right to me. This is really true and is this wanted this way ?

forgot:
@Squamry
Is this last official patch or beta ?
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

Think about what you're saying. Light levels don't affect Gunnery Accuracy, because shooting doesn't happen until there's something to shoot AT. Finding something to shoot at is an entirely different matter.
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Dixie
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Dixie »

You could make the argument that shooting from aircraft at night is easier as engagement ranges would typically be far less than daytime. Of course, finding something to shoot at is another matter.
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seille
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by seille »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Think about what you're saying. Light levels don't affect Gunnery Accuracy, because shooting doesn't happen until there's something to shoot AT. Finding something to shoot at is an entirely different matter.

Ok next try. Deadliness of the gunner should not be the same as in daylight.
And if a gunner can see and fire at his target don´t you think the fighter pilot can see the bomber too and fire at ?
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Terminus
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Terminus »

Not necessarily, no.
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JocMeister
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by JocMeister »

Well, let me rephrase myself then.
ORIGINAL: JocMeister
I thought it was pretty much established that defensive fire from bombers does not take into account that its night? So the gunners see just as well at night as they do in daylight? Might have gotten it wrong though?

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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


night air raid is the best type of fighter sweep.

normally have house rules to limit / not allow night raids altogether.

completely broken. night rear gunner accuracy is the problem.
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obvert
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RE: Is night air combat broken?

Post by obvert »

Yeah, if anyone doubts that night air interception is screwed just test it quickly. Any 50 4Es against about 50 of your choice of Japanese plane in a 50% moonlight night airfield attack. You'll have double digit fighters lost for maybe 1-2 ops losses for the bombers.
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