Why FP:ME put back?

[JudgeDredd]

Ok - as was clearly pointed out in the other thread by "Lets make one thing clear from the beginning" statement...

so...can you get something else clear from the beginning?

If not dropped - why put back? This is a "from the ground up" new game - so what made FP:ME so difficult that it could not be modelled immediately? I mean - there was alot of work already going into that last I looked at the beta testing forum after testing for FP:G. From what I recall there was research work going on at the time regarding TOE.

Look - I'm stoked you are bringing out a new Flashpoint Germany - I am. But as far as I was aware it was Flashpoint Middle East next - and I was totally stoked for it. So forgive me my disappointment.

But lets make one thing clear - I am very much split on my feelings at the moment. On the one hand I'm over the moon the next iteration of this game is coming out. I worked on Robert's beta team and with Capn Darwin for FP:G and enjoyed it immensely. It's a great game (even now), but limited. However, on the other hand I've believed for a couple of years now that a Middle East game was coming out.

So I'm just asking. I'll bugger off given ANY reply (official reply - not a reply from the apparent yes men that frequent these forums now though!)

[JudgeDredd]

Ok - that probably didn't sound very - well, polite. I apologise.

I simply don't like the feel of Matrix forums much anymore and if I could get my information about your game elsewhere - then I would.

But I can't - so I am in here purely for FP:G2 and in support of that.

So I'd be very grateful if the reasons why FP:ME weren't going to work for FP:G2 could be aired and why you think although they wouldn't work initially, they will in the future.

Before certain individuals jump all over me - I'm not "demanding" you tell me. I'm not stomping my feet. I'm not saying I know better than you. I'm just asking if you would enlighten me.

My reasons for wanting to know are simple - I'd like to understand the reasons behind the postponing of it so that I can believe it will see the light of day...it is, afterall, the one I was wanting, hoping for and expecting.

Also maybe I should stop calling it FP:G2 and call it by it's correct name FP:RS. Sorry [:D]

[wodin]

FC:RS or FPC:RS

JD just want to quickly say this forum so far only has a few forum members actively posting and they are all a good bunch.

[Hexagon]

Maybe the Middle east title could be more interesting as game but the advantage in what ifs is that you can camo some game bugs (or game features not well solved, something normal in a new game) and test how is the market... and you can allways try release an add-on with part of the work done... middle east maybe add-on could be gulf war or similar but well is a "great" jump, like a new game.

I am interested in the game, more than for title for the engine future that can cover a lot of wars because on this level is hard find games.

PD: if games is good and they have luck expect see a middle east title.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: wodin

FC:RS or FPC:RS

JD just want to quickly say this forum so far only has a few forum members actively posting and they are all a good bunch.

Indeed - FPC:RS! [8D]

And I get that Wodin. I have taken a prolonged break from Matrix forums to come back occasionally only to witness the same old crew going about their business in the same old antagonistic way.

Like I said - I'm here for this game.

[JudgeDredd]

Hexagon I know that. I know there's plans to introduce ME - as much has been said already - but thank you.

I am specifically asking what the brick wall was (if any) and how they are confident that brick wall will not be there therefore allowing ME in the future.

This game and this engine originally started as ME - I'm just trying to understand why not now and why the new direction.

[CapnDarwin]

Guys, I will comment on the ME project in better detail this evening. I understand where JD is coming from and I think I can aanswer the questions.

[JudgeDredd]

Thanks Capn Darwin - I appreciate your busy and so I appreciate the time.

[Mad Russian]

I may not have the entire answer but I think I can give you most of it.

FPME was stalled a bit. I asked if there was to be another FP Germany at some point as I really had an interest in it. I started to post on the FPG forum about the things I saw as being wrong with it. I was contacted to see if I would be interested in doing scenarios. I was already working on a Cold War theater game. That matched well with an FPG2. The more we talked the more the game seemed to move back towards a remake of the original location vs doing another new theater.

That's my short version. The Capn can give you the full version. [&o]


Since I may well have been most of the brick wall that had the road turn back to Germany instead of the Middle East, let me reassure all of you, the Middle East is an area of extreme interest to me as well. This game system is going to go some places that are going to surprise you.

The next module will also not be the Middle East. Airmobility needs to be added and we don't time to work that out now without delaying the game. That means the next module will be heavily slanted towards airmobile operations....VERY HEAVILY SLANTED!

After that I would think you should see the Middle East. Maybe as soon as a year from now but who knows how bug testing and development schedules work out.

I will tell you IT'S COMING!

Good Hunting.

MR

[JudgeDredd]

So you're to blame? [;)]

[Mad Russian]

Probably as much as anyone yes. I did finally agree to do the scenarios for a Cold War game as well as all future modules. If that helps any. [X(]

Good Hunting.

MR

[CapnDarwin]

And now the rest of the story...

Ok. After FPG was released and updated a good number of times for both content, play and some minor bugs, Rob and I set out on the ME path. Now at that time as a two man team, both working day jobs, both with family issues here and there, we slowly worked on the new game. Things started out ok and we started working on maps (still square with smaller cells for art bits) and data and code. We had originally decided to cover 48-79. Mistake number one! Too much to chew for a two man team (try saying that 3 times fast) with one person (yours truly) trying to get TOE and OOB for the forces over those years. Getting the equipment with all of our books and games and websites was easy enough as was the unit art (but time consuming none the less). The OOB side of things was a nightmare. You can't rub two sources of info together and get close. Strike two. I spent a fair number of month trying to gather it up and make sense of it. In frustration, Rob picked up the gauntlet and ran for about 6 weeks or so and told me it was absolutely maddening (picture his great Canadian accent when he says that). The next great hurdle after that would be historically accurate scenarios. In a cold war game there is no real history. Bam any scenario is legit (as my 12 year old would say). Not so with a ME scenario. Even more of an issue is the fact that everyone and their wargaming brother will be on forums and boards complaining and pointing out every flaw and historical inaccuracy (not that that has ever happened to any game, ever). I digress. We had working code. We had a semi-functional square map system. We had some data that was good and some not so much. We also had some routines that on the outside look and sound easy to do. Take the ability to limber and unlimber towed weapons or load and unload troops to separate unit counters. Seems pretty simple and for most humans it would be, but when the AI for both sides has to do it, and do it at the right times, and deal with losses to transports, and you can see where this goes. This creates a massive AI issue. In fact, any thing the AI does is an exponential code effect. Most folks don't get that. People will ask for the AI to just shoot at blue tanks. Now every other AI based routine has to tie back to this condition.

So with all of these game issues abounding let fast forward to about a year ago. We start talking with some other folks who are interested in a game. Rob and I start looking into what we can do. We come to realize that the ME project we have worked on for years does not any real home. There are no signed papers by anyone to do anything. Strike three in a big way. So in about a span of a week or two we are talking to other parties about projects and ME has no home and a few issues under the hood. So in the midst of all of this we get a call from Erik (Matrix Honcho) asking if we would be interested in doing an update to FPG. After some discussions in-house and with Erik a project with paper and signatures and such. Flashpoint Germany 2: Red Storm is born. And then rebranded to Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm to properly cover the full intent of the game engine and what we want to do with it.

So where is ME? On the shelf with a fair amount of art and data already to be used. It will need maps and historically accurate scenarios and OOBs. Some of this will be easier with a 4-5 man team and also a number of content creators who want to move things along. ME will also have the benefit of a 2.1 or 2.2 game engine with those problem routines sorted out and new capabilities added in. With the RS project I have a better source of OOBs and will use them for ME when the time comes. I don't really see any show stoppers as long as we stick to releasing modules set in decades. This will keep the flow of new material fairly consistent and avoid the massive burnout of trying to haul in 30+ years of stuff.

So there is the "rest of the story" as Paul would say back in the day. Probably more then you wanted, but it was a fair question to ask what happened to the game.

Time to get some dinner. [8D]

[midgard30]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
...
The next module will also not be the Middle East. Airmobility needs to be added and we don't time to work that out now without delaying the game. That means the next module will be heavily slanted towards airmobile operations....VERY HEAVILY SLANTED!

Excellent, excellent! [;)]

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Probably as much as anyone yes. I did finally agree to do the scenarios for a Cold War game as well as all future modules. If that helps any. [X(]

Good Hunting.

MR

Were you not involved in a rather large way with Panzer Command Ost Front?

[JudgeDredd]

Thank you Mad Russian and Capn Darwin. Very detailed and honest answers.

I totally get it - but wanted to hear it to confirm and also to know that there is an ME in the future.

I am looking forward to this. Good luck. [&o]

[CapnDarwin]

Thanks JD. And yes MR was big in the PCO game too. We are glad to have him.

[JudgeDredd]

Well - given the quality of his work from that game, I can only expect great things for this game and I'll let him off with a warning for his part in moving from ME.

[Mad Russian]

Thanks for the vote of support. I bring a few things to the table.

Like many of you I've been an avid gamer for decades. Which means I know what I like and I know what I want to see. I've created my own games. I understand the process that has to be gone through. Painful as it often is. This is my second computer game series. The first one, PCO, did very well IMO, considering it was almost entirely customer created when we were finished. I have an extensive library which combined with Jim's resources allows us to check and compare almost any vehicle or piece of equipment ever made, the tactics used, the orders of battle or TO&E for any force ever put together. If we don't have it we buy it. I created HSG which became a widely recognized design group for historical scenarios. We are still recognized for our depth of historical research and the ability to bring those situations to a game with a highly competitive scenario.

Having said all that, I'm simply on the team to help where I can. I keep busy...[>:]...glad I can help.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

I'd like to make one more point about ME and the expansions/modules going forward. Nothing is off limits. We are looking at infantry or armor conflicts, everything from WWII through modern, all theaters, all locations, history in decade long slices...in short we are looking at all the conflicts that have taken place since the 1930's and seeing how to integrate those. Most of what we are doing now is with an eye as to how that will work for the rest of the historical era from 1930 through today.

Good Hunting.

MR

[BeirutDude]

Looks AWESOME! I will play whatever comes out but very exicted about the possibility of a ME add on/game.