Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

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Michael T
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Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Michael T »

821Bobo (Robert) has chosen to play Soviet in our rematch of an earlier game. Same conditions as my M60 game.

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Alt 41CG scenario
Server game
Locked HQ Support
Non Random Weather

House Rules
No Para drops to break pockets at anytime in the game. No Para missions at all by the Soviets until the first
Blizzard.
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1).
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit

Additional Auto VC (in place to prevent ludicrous runaways) If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at the end of 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory.

If the Soviet player holds Pskov, Smolensk, Bryansk,
Kharkov and Stalino concurrently at anytime in 1942 he wins an Auto Victory.

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Peltonx
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Peltonx »

Should be a good game.

Bobo took heavy loses in 1941 summer, but managed one of the best blizzard offensives. Only one better was TDV.

I only lost 10 German divisions, but the real killer was he dropped the over all infantry morale allot and forsed me to recall all of my reserves to front to save another 30+ units from surrender.

I was able to have an average 42 summer.

Bobo's use of reserve mode is by far the best of any SHC player also. What looks like an easy win in 1941 summer generally is not forsing me to use much stronger formations per battle in center.

You can also expect the M60 strength counter attacks vs any German mech or panzer unit.

Should be a good match if Bobo is able to stabilize lines for a single turn between 3-5.

Good Luck and have fun.
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Michael T
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Michael T »

End Axis T1 (22nd June 1941) Clear

Here is my latest opening. Some pockets are very loose, and may well get broken. But there is a good reason for this. Why use all your powder when you don’t need too? I have 2 Panzer XX lurking somewhere on this map that will only move up to the line on T2. On T3 they will have 120% gas because they will only be paying 1mp (2% fuel) per hex (for clear) to advance on T2 instead of 2mp (4% fuel) per hex on T1. So by sacrificing a perfectly solid opening I will have 2 fully fuelled and fresh Pz XX for a T3 assault somewhere.

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.


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Flaviusx
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Flaviusx »

Aww, c'mon. The entire first turn is a fantasy at this point, MT. Not just for you but everybody. Your brand of craziness comes later.

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Michael T
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Michael T »

The example has nothing to do with the arguement about whether the game or T1 is fantasy or not. If you simply extrapolate the essence of the idea across several turns you can see how some of your units will always have a little extra gas. It is one of the methods I use to save fuel since muling and unlimited range from a railhead air supply got neurfed. To be honest I don't know why you bother with the game anymore Flavius since you despise it so much.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Seminole »

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.

"Logistics is the ball and chain of armored warfare." - Heinz Guderian
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Here is my latest opening. Some pockets are very loose, and may well get broken. But there is a good reason for this. Why use all your powder when you don’t need too? I have 2 Panzer XX lurking somewhere on this map that will only move up to the line on T2. On T3 they will have 120% gas because they will only be paying 1mp (2% fuel) per hex (for clear) to advance on T2 instead of 2mp (4% fuel) per hex on T1. So by sacrificing a perfectly solid opening I will have 2 fully fuelled and fresh Pz XX for a T3 assault somewhere.

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.

I think it is perfectly legit, and a good idea. In principle the Germans could also have planned a more staggered advance with eyes on upcoming fuel and supply shortages, assuming they also had had hindsight we have, or if they just had acted more wisely. You can't compare that in any way to the Lvov can opener, that part that the defending side watches units sliding by idle is purely an artifact of I-go-U-go. If you were to make this a better simulation, this would be one spot where an approximation in the model was made that causes qualitative errors. Being fuel-efficient is merely being a good at logistics and planning -- just as Seminole's citation says.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Flaviusx »

MT, quite simply, there is nothing you can say or do to convince me that what you are doing is historically plausible. I am not accusing you of cheating. You simply have optimized the game to the nth degree and taken advantage of the design given you. But the results are pretty over the top. This, as I have said elsewhere, is a failure of game design. I merely hope that future iterations of the game take a more realistic approach towards combat and logistics.

It's not personal, man. Just business.



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Michael T
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Michael T »

Flavius, I am gamer first and foremost. This is a good game, easily the best PC game I have played. I really doubt you are ever going to see the 'perfect simulation', which I think is what you want. Even ASL, the most popular tactical board wargame in history is not a perfect simulation and it has its warts and unrealistic aspects. WITE is no different. I accept it for what it is, so I play it. WITE can, and will be improved upon in the next version, meanwhile I will enjoy this version.

Also I am not trying to convice anyone what is historically plausible. This is a game. Considering its design constraints (time, map scale and units scale) I think it does pretty well. I am merely trying to explain one aspect of my logistical system.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by hugh04 »

Thank you MT. You have shown me a new tip on how to handle panzers. Let one panzer convert a hex and the next turn the other panzer will save gas by being able to go over the same hex at a lower cost thereby extending its range in the following turn. I assume the lagging panzer will also benefit froom more gas as it will be closer to a railhead. I will keep this in mind to maximize damage on turn 3 and 4 and 5. Thanks.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by swkuh »

Yep, its a game and using its rules well is what should be done. Challenge the developers and keep them sharp.

Historical reality? Need some private rules at this time to ensure that could be realized. So what would they be?

For me, the worst solution is to use hidden switches that force historical balanced outcomes. Historical balance should be had from the algorithms w/o forcing results. German logistics & equipment failed in Winter '41 but got better. Soviet organization & doctrine were poor at first but got better. There are real effects due to surprise and surprise wasn't isolated to '41. Etc! All this could be modelled and made managable, but would be very challenging for developers.

Would it ever be correct to put Joe & Adolph on the sidelines? There is a time to ask just what is being modelled or allowed.



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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Ketza »

Although I agree with your fuel theory that central pocket is way to loose for my taste. Of all the pockets that can cause a headache the center one can lead to the most delays if it gets back into supply.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Shupov »

ORIGINAL: vandev

Thank you MT. You have shown me a new tip on how to handle panzers. Let one panzer convert a hex and the next turn the other panzer will save gas by being able to go over the same hex at a lower cost thereby extending its range in the following turn. I assume the lagging panzer will also benefit froom more gas as it will be closer to a railhead. I will keep this in mind to maximize damage on turn 3 and 4 and 5. Thanks.

vandev

The same applies to the Soviets during the first blizzard. Don't move everyone forward where resistance is light. Hold back units until the hexes flip the next turn then move them forward at lower MP cost. This will help conserve fuel, supplies and trucks.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by HITMAN202 »

To be "efficient" with Pz moves in AGN fails to accomplish the two major early objectives of AGN (IMO)....1) to get the infantry across the Daugava ASAP onto Pskov (and attack it on turn 4) and 2) have the Pz's (one corp from AGC also) breech the Velikaya on turn 3 to keep an organized D from forming.

MT looking at your AGN T1, your infantry in the center of the AGN have a clear path to the Daugava (which is crucial), but have not been pushed forward quickly enough. Also XXII Corp should be committed north because of the paucity of infantry in AGN (IMO) and any later reinforcements get to AGC's battleground far quicker than to AGN's.

But my biggest beef is you have no corridor to the Daugava cleared for the infantry near Kaunas. 8-9 infantry are loitering there. They have serious business north to attend to !!!

One Corp AGC Pz's is used to open and (imp) secure this pathway and isolate the strong inf div north of Vilnius to boot.

When I start my AAR against THEPRO's, I'll show you what I did. It went very, very well. It surprised the dudes (IMO) and they sent a ton of reinforcements there
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Michael T »

All pockets held bar the one south of Rovno.

My priority for turn one has changed somewhat lately. I am trying to minmize the number of units the Soviets have on T2 and T3. If you attack everything on T1 and rout them many rally and escape to fight you again later. Now I try to trap as many as I can by herding. Ultimately this means less are in front of me on T2 and T3, but yes it also means I have to leave more INF behind to deal with them. I accept that.

There was a slight hiccup in AGN on T1. The Port of Liepaja had a very tough Soviet ID there. It held against a hasty, a deliberate, a hasty with 2 ID and finally circumed to a final deliberate from a 3rd ID. So that one ID left 3 of my ID tied up. Just one of those unexpected things that sometimes screw you on T1. So there are 2 German ID used up that would normally be heading east at full speed.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Seminole »

Although I agree with your fuel theory that central pocket is way to loose for my taste.

I don't really see where it can be broken. The 55th Rifle Div in Slutsk (south of Minsk) has maybe 50% supplies, and definitely won't have the MP to make a move through frictional ZOC to open the pocket. Elsewhere the bands are too deep to penetrate. I think he is on solid ground.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

All pockets held bar the one south of Rovno.

My priority for turn one has changed somewhat lately. I am trying to minmize the number of units the Soviets have on T2 and T3. If you attack everything on T1 and rout them many rally and escape to fight you again later. Now I try to trap as many as I can by herding. Ultimately this means less are in front of me on T2 and T3, but yes it also means I have to leave more INF behind to deal with them. I accept that.

There was a slight hiccup in AGN on T1. The Port of Liepaja had a very tough Soviet ID there. It held against a hasty, a deliberate, a hasty with 2 ID and finally circumed to a final deliberate from a 3rd ID. So that one ID left 3 of my ID tied up. Just one of those unexpected things that sometimes screw you on T1. So there are 2 German ID used up that would normally be heading east at full speed.

I lov you man, but I just don't think you have played anyone that is very good at SHC. Other then possibly Tarrhunas.

You need to play Flaviusx/Katza/Hoooper or Bomazz. I know I am missing a few, sorry

Possibly Bobo has the skills as he has played both sides and is now good at both.

I don't really care who wins, but it be nice to see you get to late 42 knowing you will not win out and have to struggle to get a minor win or draw.

Your missing a very rewarding part of the game few have mastered or even gotten to as GHC.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Flaviusx »

Eh, don't volunteer me, Pelton. I flatly refuse to play MT under the game conditions he uses. The lack of random weather for me is a show stopper, and the more I see MT play, the more I am convinced that he is nearly impossible to beat in 1941 without divine climactic intervention. He won't play anybody who won't accept these. Therefore no such game will ever occur.
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Eh, don't volunteer me, Pelton. I flatly refuse to play MT under the game conditions he uses. The lack of random weather for me is a show stopper, and the more I see MT play, the more I am convinced that he is nearly impossible to beat in 1941 without divine climactic intervention. He won't play anybody who won't accept these. Therefore no such game will ever occur.

You had no problem stopping me when HQ build-ups and muling were possible.

I think you have a more then 50/50 chance.


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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

To be "efficient" with Pz moves in AGN fails to accomplish the two major early objectives of AGN (IMO)....1) to get the infantry across the Daugava ASAP onto Pskov (and attack it on turn 4) and 2) have the Pz's (one corp from AGC also) breech the Velikaya on turn 3 to keep an organized D from forming.

MT looking at your AGN T1, your infantry in the center of the AGN have a clear path to the Daugava (which is crucial), but have not been pushed forward quickly enough. Also XXII Corp should be committed north because of the paucity of infantry in AGN (IMO) and any later reinforcements get to AGC's battleground far quicker than to AGN's.

But my biggest beef is you have no corridor to the Daugava cleared for the infantry near Kaunas. 8-9 infantry are loitering there. They have serious business north to attend to !!!

One Corp AGC Pz's is used to open and (imp) secure this pathway and isolate the strong inf div north of Vilnius to boot.

When I start my AAR against THEPRO's, I'll show you what I did. It went very, very well. It surprised the dudes (IMO) and they sent a ton of reinforcements there

MT is gambling on his Mot units will be enough, if Bobo can keep turns 3-5 under control then MT is in trouble getting the train moving agian in time. Same issue I had vs Flaviusx. It will get moving, but how long will it cost him?

If Bobo is doing the North to South strategy then he has to counter MT's split strategy. MT's strategy is to split the North south which unbalances the strategy. If the SHC is doing the standard defence they are screwed anyways game set match.

If Bobo plays this game the way he played ours he will be in position to counter this. Its the best strategy as SHC, defend Leningrad to Oka, give up 30ish arm pts west of rivers, checker board in south and move 20 units to north of Oka.

MT has taken his game plan into turns 3-5, where as most guys are about turns 1-3. MT has more options as he is able to see what SHC is using for defences and where. He is much stronger then normal turns 3-5. GHC tank loses more tanks to movement then fighting early in game.

I like how hes doing stuff, I am guessing hes playing around with refit allot also with panzers.

The one weak area I see is infantry morale is not going to be very high, because of a lack of fighting.

But MT has always been about wiping out SHC before November. He basing everything on crippling SHC before blizzard.

Its working why change?
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