Stalingrad

[Footslogger]

When things were going so well for the Gemans, what went wrong at Stalingrad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6thQKSNBSo

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When things were going so well for the Gemans, what went wrong at Stalingrad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6thQKSNBSo

warspite1

They weren't - have a read of Ostkrieg. The Germans were in big trouble before they launched the operation that culminated in Stalingrad. For the operation itself (Operation Blau) essentially the Wehrmacht had too much in the way of objectives and too little army to achieve them.

Blau went wrong almost from the start. Remember, to allow Blue to happen, Army Group's North and Centre were stripped of much men and equipment. When the attack started the Russians retreated, rather than allow themselves to be surrounded and gobbled up by Army Group South's pincers. Then, as the German supply line got longer, the Germans needed to use satellite troops - Italians, Hungarians and Romanians to man the flanks. The troops sucked into the fighting at Stalingrad were therefore ripe for a counter-attack. Hitler also split the Army Group so that a portion moved into the Caucasus. The army available for this job too just weren't strong enough to come even close to success.

[Footslogger]

In addition to the cold conditions, should the Germans been better off to cancel Operation Blue and just ride out the winter?

[Denniss]

Do not forget the dumb austrian recruit holding all power in germany - the disaster in Stalingrad was more or less his fault as he did not permit any withdrawal.

[Footslogger]

I know that many of the mistakes were made by Hitler himself. I sometimes wonder how Georing or Himmler would do, if Hitler had been killed?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I know that many of the mistakes were made by Hitler himself. I sometimes wonder how Georing or Himmler would do, if Hitler had been killed?

They never would have gained power.

I beleive germany was the first nation to have univeral health care.

Hitler put the poeple first thats why they loved him so much at the beginning.

The rest of the world was in a depression and Germany was living it up 35-39. The NY times has many great articles on Hitler and many a lib had nothing but good words for Hitler/Stalin and mussi until after the war started. Kinda how they think China is so all that right now.

To say Hitler was a moron would be to say FDR was a plant.

Hitler was a monster, only one bigger was Stalin.

But that doesn't mean they were stupid. If they were so stupid then you should be a millionaire or running a country.

Hilter and Stalin lacked morales thats why Hitler had no problem killing millions Jews and Stalin killing millions his own poeple.

Don't confuse a lack or morales for a lack of smarts.

[Footslogger]

I thought that Hitler named Goering as his successor? Agian, if the German forces waited out the wintertime, wouldn't many thousands of them to be saved?

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When things were going so well for the Gemans, what went wrong at Stalingrad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6thQKSNBSo

warspite1

They weren't - have a read of Ostkrieg. The Germans were in big trouble before they launched the operation that culminated in Stalingrad. For the operation itself (Operation Blau) essentially the Wehrmacht had too much in the way of objectives and too little army to achieve them.

Blau went wrong almost from the start. Remember, to allow Blue to happen, Army Group's North and Centre were stripped of much men and equipment. When the attack started the Russians retreated, rather than allow themselves to be surrounded and gobbled up by Army Group South's pincers. Then, as the German supply line got longer, the Germans needed to use satellite troops - Italians, Hungarians and Romanians to man the flanks. The troops sucked into the fighting at Stalingrad were therefore ripe for a counter-attack. Hitler also split the Army Group so that a portion moved into the Caucasus. The army available for this job too just weren't strong enough to come even close to success.

The first part is a myth. Looking at Blau one has to split it into three phases. The first phase was to breach the Soviet lines west of Voronezh and gain the city as anchor point. Phase two then called for a destruction of the Soviet forces between Don and Volga (similar to Barbarossa's plan of destroying the Red Army west of Dvina and Dniepr). The third phase finally was planned like a ride into the Caucasus. Phase one itself was very successful, provoking memories of 1941. The Soviets guessed the German objective wrong with Moscow, but they did anticipate the first strike to come at Voronezh (and then turn north instead of south). Thus the forces at Voronezh were quite strong, with a reserve tank army in place. 4th Panzer Army, however, easily breached the Soviet lines and pushed them back to Voronezh.

What happened then is wrongly described as orderly retreat. In reality it was more like a panicked flight. For a short period in July 42 there was a mass panic in the South. Non-Russian units refused to fight, other units simply flooded South, C&C was a mess. There was a reason why Stalin came up with the no-step-back order 227 of July 28th 42, that included the call for blocking detachments shooting guys that were fleeing. But what that massive flight did achieve was preventing the destruction of valuable forces. This actually led to a massive crisis in the German High Command. Von Bock and Halder in early July disagreed on the schedule of operations. While von Bock wanted to secure Voronezh first (the city itself hadn't been captured yet), Halder wanted to rush the units south to encircle the Soviets. This ended in the sacking of von Bock, but Halder, who gave ever new orders of flanking the enemy, had to discover that July 41 had repeated. The Wehrmacht was unable to destroy the Soviet forces, the pre-requisite of those massive territorial gains, this time even failing to capture major forces. By all indications he himself must have realized that the war was lost and there is a compelling thesis that he actually provoked Hitler into dismissing him, as Halder deliberately created conflicts he avoided the previous year.

[A game]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

They never would have gained power.

I beleive germany was the first nation to have univeral health care.

Hitler put the poeple first thats why they loved him so much at the beginning.

The rest of the world was in a depression and Germany was living it up 35-39. The NY times has many great articles on Hitler and many a lib had nothing but good words for Hitler/Stalin and mussi until after the war started. Kinda how they think China is so all that right now.

To say Hitler was a moron would be to say FDR was a plant.

Hitler was a monster, only one bigger was Stalin.

But that doesn't mean they were stupid. If they were so stupid then you should be a millionaire or running a country.

Hilter and Stalin lacked morales thats why Hitler had no problem killing millions Jews and Stalin killing millions his own poeple.

Don't confuse a lack or morales for a lack of smarts.

I agree, Hitler was not stupid, but I think for a lot of people it probably makes WW2 easier to deal with to think he was a moron. Thats a dangerous thing to do though!

Interestingly enough Stalin was also very intelligent but he actually pretended to be less intelligent as a way to fool his enemies as he moved towards power in the russian government. A very good read on that subject and Stalins early days: Young Stalin - by Simon Sebag Montefiore

[timmyab]

Things weren't really going well.The German high command fatally underestimated Soviet strength and resilience.They expected the Soviet Union to collapse within six months but instead it steadily grew stronger.By early December 1941 it must have been clear to the more astute German officers that they'd made a terrible mistake and Hitler's declaration of war against the USA on the 11th must have sealed any hopes they had left.

The disaster at Stalingrad was down to a mixture of arrogance, overconfidence and incompetence both at the strategic and more local level.

[Footslogger]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Things weren't really going well.The German high command fatally underestimated Soviet strength and resilience.They expected the Soviet Union to collapse within six months but instead it steadily grew stronger.By early December 1941 it must have been clear to the more astute German officers that they'd made a terrible mistake and Hitler's declaration of war against the USA on the 11th must have sealed any hopes they had left.

The disaster at Stalingrad was down to a mixture of arrogance, overconfidence and incompetence both at the strategic and more local level.

I do think the Germans had 155,000 (frozen to death) & 155,000 KIA. But Russia's old allie (namely the cold, cold winter) played a large factor in of itself of the battle.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Things weren't really going well.The German high command fatally underestimated Soviet strength and resilience.They expected the Soviet Union to collapse within six months but instead it steadily grew stronger.By early December 1941 it must have been clear to the more astute German officers that they'd made a terrible mistake and Hitler's declaration of war against the USA on the 11th must have sealed any hopes they had left.

The disaster at Stalingrad was down to a mixture of arrogance, overconfidence and incompetence both at the strategic and more local level.

It's not like the Germans were the only ones to underestimate the bear's strength. British and American officers alike expected the Soviets to crumble after three months. Both parties drew the wrong conclusions from the Winter War and were too much influenced by the Russian performance in WWI. Still, the extent to which the Germans underestimated the Soviets was remarkable. Their justification for pushing beyond breaking point in November 1941 was practially "if we are close to exhaustion, the Soviet has to be even worse". And once again, in 1942 they believed that one final big push would win them the war, that the Soviets did not possess any meaningful reserves, apart from what they already mobilized. It would not be until mid-1943 that the Red Army peaked in terms of manpower.

[gradenko2k]

AFAIK Stalingrad wasn't even supposed to consume as many resources as it did. It was supposed to be bypassed and/or captured on the march. It was only later that Hitler became obsessed with capturing it via direct assault.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger
I do think the Germans had 155,000 (frozen to death) & 155,000 KIA. But Russia's old allie (namely the cold, cold winter) played a large factor in of itself of the battle.

I don't think the extreme winter of 41/42 was decisive.Even as early as July 41 the alarm bells must have been ringing for some senior German officers and by December, even before the worst of the winter weather, most of them must have suspected that the war wasn't going to end well.

ORIGINAL: SigUp
British and American officers alike expected the Soviets to crumble after three months. Both parties drew the wrong conclusions from the Winter War and were too much influenced by the Russian performance in WWI.

Yes I'm sure that's right.It's the only explanation for Barbarossa.They must have been convinced that the blitzkrieg would cause the Soviet Union to collapse and when that didn't happen it was game over.

[vinnie71]

SigUp got it right. The truth is that success of the preliminary operations of Blau bred overconfidence and basically the Wehrmacht advanced into empty space (militarily speaking) once they broke through.
 
One other factor that contributed to this was that overextension of the military resources was not apparent immediately in June and July 42. With the arrival of large contingents of allied forces (nearly 3 armies of Italians, Hungarians and Romanians), and the unofficial but substantial recruitment of friendly locals to combat insurgency plus the reserves brought from other areas of the Reich in early '42, meant that OKH did have substantial forces to commit to a southern strategy. The fact that such allies proved incapable of resisting the Red Army only became apparent later on with all these contingents providing sterling service when on the offensive. In effect they only crumbled when confronted by the massed Soviet army when on the defensive.
 
However, such an Axis concentration of force in the south was essentially dissipated when orders were issued to pursue 2 different targets - ie the creation of a protetective shoulder (which led to Stalingrad) and a push in the Caucasus. In the eyes of Hitler and I would say many of his generals, a Caucasus push provided several advantages military and economical in the immediate and longer term. Although they must have realised that splitting their forces was essentially an error, there were several 'mitigating' factors. They believed that they would continue advancing against a defeated foe on ground and amongst populations that were natural enemies of the communists and by inference, potential allies. They also believed that they could solve the logistical issues involved which were obviously daunting. So basically the whole premise behind the offensive in the Caucasus was more of an armed parade than a real military offensive.
 
With hindsight we can say all we want. But in '42 the Germans (and not just Hitler) they only saw opportunities and they had not been successful so far by being conservative but only through taking huge risks. this was just another one... 

[turtlefang]

I agree that SignUp has the current belief based on new historical analysis and reports. And Offworlder is right that the Germans split their forces to pursue two separate and very geographically far apart objectives.

But a major failure of the Heer was its intelligence. Even in 42, it simply did not have a handle on the size of the Soviet military machine, its ability to expand, reequip, and bring new forces to bear - especially in the strength that it did on both the Moscow and Stalingrad fronts in late 42. The Germans simply never understood the economic might of the Soviet Union or their ability to mobilize - and when attacked, were literally surprised at all levels.

Last, I trend to agree with Pelton regarding Goering and Himmler if Hitler had been killed. I don't think these two could have pulled off a coup - I think the Army would have "nominated" someone and taken over or a long, bloody mess would have ensured.

And Pelton also right regarding Hitler. While its fashionable to believe that Hitler was a moron now, he wasn't. Pure evil, yes. A sociopath, yes. But he was political genius that actually got a lot of military decision correct against the advice of his generals. And it wasn't a slam dunk that if von Paulus had been given the order to retreat when Manstien counterattack, he could have made it out. Most of the current analysis indicate his fuel and ability to move was very limited by that time.

Stalingrad may well have been lost when the decision was made to split into Army Groups A and B. Given the intelligence that the Germans had, that probably wasn't a dumb decision at the time. But whether they should have believed the intelligence given what they found the year before - that's another matter.

[mmarquo]

"Stalingrad may well have been lost when the decision was made to split into Army Groups A and B."

Lost when Groups A and B were given orders to capture objectives ~ 90 degrees from each other, and advancing meant moving farther apart.

Marquo

[Footslogger]

Did any of Hitler's generals oppose Blua or even Barbarosa?

[Laz]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I know that many of the mistakes were made by Hitler himself. I sometimes wonder how Georing or Himmler would do, if Hitler had been killed?

They never would have gained power.

I beleive germany was the first nation to have univeral health care.

Hitler put the poeple first thats why they loved him so much at the beginning.

The rest of the world was in a depression and Germany was living it up 35-39. The NY times has many great articles on Hitler and many a lib had nothing but good words for Hitler/Stalin and mussi until after the war started. Kinda how they think China is so all that right now.

To say Hitler was a moron would be to say FDR was a plant.

Hitler was a monster, only one bigger was Stalin.

But that doesn't mean they were stupid. If they were so stupid then you should be a millionaire or running a country.

Hilter and Stalin lacked morales thats why Hitler had no problem killing millions Jews and Stalin killing millions his own poeple.

Don't confuse a lack or morales for a lack of smarts.

hitler was a moron. he was a crazed scuzzy, same as you will find in a homeless shelter in an urban area, the kind of nutbar who will go on with insane theories. delve in mein kampf, a torturous rambling go nowhere waste of time- there is no wisdom, just bombast and babel. that hitler rose to power has less to do with his intelligence than the surrender of those who chose not to stand up to him.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did any of Hitler's generals oppose Blua or even Barbarosa?

When Hitler disclosed his plan to attack the Soviet Union many generals were dismayed, as it would create the two-front war they dreaded. But ultimately the attitude of the German generals of that time was if the Supreme Commander orders something, it will be done, regardless of one's own opinion. Concerning Blau, the General Staff favoured another attack at Moscow and they did not like operating into the Caucasus. But they did not really resist when Hitler could not be convinced otherwise.