Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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fbs
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Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by fbs »

Since game launch (and I bought it 1st day) I can't get my head around this:

Enemy sends some zippy tanks and and cut my rear. Now I have 30 divisions (300,000 men) in a huge pocket of some 100 hexes (I guess that's some 8,000 km2, more or less the size of Puerto Rico). Inside my pocket there's a big city with 3,000,000 people, plus some 10 other smaller cities.

Now, my troops didn't fight, they are just waiting in the trenches. It's been a nice sunny week, and they ate eggs and bacon from the friendly farmers around. Most of the troops haven't even seen a single German yet.

Yet their combat value dropped like a rock, just as if they spent the winter surrounded at Stalingrad. Then when the men in a 10,000-strong rifle division see two germans, they cry "Yayk!! The Germans!!" and they all run away and shatter in panic - not knowing that they had seen some lost Bolivian tourists instead.

It doesn't make sense! I know there must be some penalties for being surrounded, but the way it is, it's just too much...
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by Denniss »

They are penalized because they are in an isolated zone. You may reduce this penalty by flying supply to an airbase inside the isolated tone - some units may then counted as having air (beach) head supply with reduced penalties.

Isolated zones need some more tweaks though - if there's a major city in the zone it should be counted as a local supply source (just like an airbase) and all units within range set to beach head supply. Hexes should then also not autoconvert to enemy hexes.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by AFV »

The CV reduction is far too severe IMO- the Axis player should not be able to reduce large pockets in one turn, with no difficulty.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by fbs »

ORIGINAL: Denniss
They are penalized because they are in an isolated zone. You may reduce this penalty by flying supply to an airbase inside the isolated tone - some units may then counted as having air (beach) head supply with reduced penalties.


Correct, but why is that applied twice? The CV of all units is calculated from "a complex formula" that includes its supply level, so low supply penalizes all units, whether they are isolated or not; then for isolated units there's a second supply penalty applied, just because they are isolated...

About the air beach head status - wow, I didn't know. Thanks for that info!
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by delatbabel »

The air head supply will move your units out of isolated status but generally speaking, unless you devote the entire luftwaffe or VVS to it and don't meet any enemy fighter opposition, will not increase your CVs above 1 for a large pocket. So it doesn't increase the chance that the pocket will be cleared out with all units surrendering the next turn. You're just wasting a lot of valuable transports attempting it.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by fbs »

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

The air head supply will move your units out of isolated status but generally speaking, unless you devote the entire luftwaffe or VVS to it and don't meet any enemy fighter opposition, will not increase your CVs above 1 for a large pocket. So it doesn't increase the chance that the pocket will be cleared out with all units surrendering the next turn. You're just wasting a lot of valuable transports attempting it.

Ah, thank you
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by ETF »

Is this on the hit list re.the next beta patch?
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by elmo3 »

Not all pockets are created equal. Obviously the OP created a situation very favorable to making his point. Now picture a couple of divisions in the middle of nowhere, not dug in, that had minimal supplies to begin with being pocketed by an Army during a blizzard where they can hear but not even see tanks closing in on them only a few hundred meters away, and they have no idea where their comrades are now located. What do you think would happen to their enthusiasm under those conditions? Point being it's just not practical to try to create unique rules to cover these two vastly different pockets or a multitude of other pocket variations.

To ETF - If you are asking if changes to pocket rules are being considered, AFAIK the answer is no.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by darbycmcd »

Well, I think your example actually points to a better fix. There should be a morale hit to isolated units, just like there is in RL. But the problem is the current system used their supply level as a modifier, but that doesn't make so much sense because that is already a modifier. Being isolated doesn't make your weapons less effective, it makes you more scared. It also means you can't resupply, which hits you later with larger supply modifiers, but that is already subsumed into the normal game mechanism; ie the next turn your supply level will be even lower so will generate worse modifier. I also don't like the current system as far too punishing. Just wack the units with something like -20 morale and let the supply system just do its normal thing. Bad units will surrender, starving units will disintegrate, but highly motivated and supplied units can last for a considerable time....
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by AFV »

In the game, in my experience, every single pocket the Axis creates surrenders the very next turn. Without exception in good weather. Even if its a half-assed Romanian division attacking.
 
Is that historical? Is there any documented evidence that any Soviet pockets lasted longer than a week? Did every single encirclement the Axis created surrender within a week, without exception?
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by fbs »

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Not all pockets are created equal. Obviously the OP created a situation very favorable to making his point. Now picture a couple of divisions in the middle of nowhere, not dug in, that had minimal supplies to begin with being pocketed by an Army during a blizzard where they can hear but not even see tanks closing in on them only a few hundred meters away, and they have no idea where their comrades are now located. What do you think would happen to their enthusiasm under those conditions? Point being it's just not practical to try to create unique rules to cover these two vastly different pockets or a multitude of other pocket variations.


Precisely. The way I see I it, the current rules are good for small pockets, but the penalties are way extreme for large pockets. One option could be no fight in previous turn for a unit and unit is not in contact with enemy = no additional penalties for being isolated.

As the unit is already being penalized for lack of supplies, lack of mobility, can't retreat and morale hits... getting one big hit on it whether it has seen the enemy or not seems to bias towards the attacker.

But if the unit was attacked previous turn, or the unit is in contact with enemy, then I'd say yeah, hit it with all.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by csarebel »

To say every single pocket surrenders within a week without exception simply isnt a true statement. I often see pockets last more then one turn. It also depends on how much is thrown against them. Even without pockets the german cango nearly any place he wants the first summer. He just cant go everywhere he wants to go. A determined attack on the units in a pocket would route those same units even without the isolated rules. Since they are isolated they surrender.

Another thing to consider is how weapons are employed when a unit is isolated. An anti tank gun that might normally fire several rounds to destroy a tank will not take low probability shots...which do occasionally kill. Supression fire from machine guns will be reduced. There were germans at stalingrad who were read the riot act for "wasting" anti tank rounds even though they killed a tank with each round fired. There is a difference in being in low supply and knowing there is little likelyhood of resupply. Think of your car...you still go to work when your car is low on gas because you can stop and get more. You might drive a little slower until you get there but you still go. Now imagine that you would not be able to gas up...would you go to work knowing you will be stuck there? No, if there was no gas to come by you would save that last 1/4 tank for an emergency.

When discipline is maintained isolated units can still fight very well. When it breaks down then game over. The soviet units often lost all discipline when surrounded. At Kiev there wasnt even an officer in charge of the pocket, if I recall correctly.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by wulfgar »

Now, my troops didn't fight, they are just waiting in the trenches

The problem is the Germans fight dirty, penetrate the front in narrow sectors and attack your trenches from the rear. Other lines that don't see any Germans are ordered to pull back and form new lines. During that process supplies are dislocated.

In the game the pockets look very neat, but they are frozen in a moment of time during the week. In actual fact German mobile units have assaulted rear supply centers and damaged lines of communication.

Later in the war the blitzkrieg tactic began to fail when the front line defenders merely closed the breach behind the penetrating forces.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by Redmarkus5 »

A big part of the problem is the fact that in WitE cities don't seem to generate supply. If a surrounded city generated slowly reducing amounts of supply each turn, then:

1. You'd be more likely to defend them.
2. The enemy would be more likely to attack them.
3. Pockets around a major city would hold for longer.
4. The overall realism of the game would be enhanced.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: wulfgar
Now, my troops didn't fight, they are just waiting in the trenches

The problem is the Germans fight dirty, penetrate the front in narrow sectors and attack your trenches from the rear. Other lines that don't see any Germans are ordered to pull back and form new lines. During that process supplies are dislocated.

In the game the pockets look very neat, but they are frozen in a moment of time during the week. In actual fact German mobile units have assaulted rear supply centers and damaged lines of communication.

Later in the war the blitzkrieg tactic began to fail when the front line defenders merely closed the breach behind the penetrating forces.

Many Soviet pockets lasted much longer in real life than they do in the game.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by fbs »

Bataan lasted 92 days, or 13 game turns, with no external supplies.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: fbs

Bataan lasted 92 days, or 13 game turns, with no external supplies.

They did get some submarines in, but still a drop in the bucket.


Classic case is still Stalingrad. In game terms: 6 turns of isolation followed by 4 turns of active pocket reduction against 20 divisions in a 2x2 pocket. With the pocket having a bit of beach head supply during the first few isolation turns.

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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Well, I think your example actually points to a better fix. There should be a morale hit to isolated units, just like there is in RL. But the problem is the current system used their supply level as a modifier, but that doesn't make so much sense because that is already a modifier. Being isolated doesn't make your weapons less effective, it makes you more scared. It also means you can't resupply, which hits you later with larger supply modifiers, but that is already subsumed into the normal game mechanism; ie the next turn your supply level will be even lower so will generate worse modifier. I also don't like the current system as far too punishing. Just wack the units with something like -20 morale and let the supply system just do its normal thing. Bad units will surrender, starving units will disintegrate, but highly motivated and supplied units can last for a considerable time....

Compared to the impact of leader and other modifiers, the "normal" supply modifier might very well not play much of a role for combat results, relatively. Hence the need for an additional penalty.

I think the problem is that the auto retreat=surrender mechanism is too severe in combination with the current isolation modifier. Change either and things might improve.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by wulfgar »

ORIGINAL: fbs

Bataan lasted 92 days, or 13 game turns, with no external supplies.

The trick is not losing your supplies in the first place. In the case of Bataan good order was maintained and they retreated into a natural fort that couldn't be out flanked. Their front line got to defend against those attacking from the front.

As for Soviets it was half baked officers an men, who were new to the shock of Blitzkrieg.
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RE: Someone explain to me again why CV is reduced for isolated unit?

Post by wulfgar »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Many Soviet pockets lasted much longer in real life than they do in the game.

You're playing on 'normal'?
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