My biggest issues with the game at the moment

[KamilS]

Should we expect improvement in German C&C and nerfing performances of high ROF elements? Or these things are not considered problem?

[Flaviusx]

Um, what's wrong with German C&C?

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Should we expect improvement in German C&C and nerfing performances of high ROF elements? Or these things are not considered problem?

Add in mountain winter joy rides.

[KamilS]

Flaviusx


Um, what's wrong with German C&C?

Since '42 onwards it is impossible for Germans to have HQs not overloaded - it is opposite trend for Soviets.

[Flaviusx]

Oh? STAVKA overloads in late 1941 and never gets below cap after that. Front command capacity never quite catches up, either, although it is manageable by mid 1943. (You'll still have more units than can be fit in.)

The Red Army has to get by mostly on a single layer of command -- the army.

German C&C is light years ahead of this.

[mmarquo]

Do not overload the Axis HQs; rotate burnt out units to OKH command and replace with fresh ones. I have noticed in both my current games (one as Axis, other Soviet) that HQ overload appears to be the biggest (-) factor affecting combat.


arquo

[KamilS]

Marquo

Do not overload the Axis HQs; rotate burnt out units to OKH command and replace with fresh ones

It is not as easy as it seems - it is necessary to use inferior Romanian, Hungarian and Italian HQs and it costs lots of AP. On the top of that Germans need to maintain constant rotation due to inability to refit in enemy's ZOC.

Flaviusx

Oh? STAVKA overloads in late 1941 and never gets below cap after that. Front command capacity never quite catches up, either, although it is manageable by mid 1943. (You'll still have more units than can be fit in.)

The Red Army has to get by mostly on a single layer of command -- the army.

German C&C is light years ahead of this.

Mid '42 - I hope I counted units properly



Germans:

184 Divisions, 3 brigades and 9 regiments - overall 380 pts (I do not count security forces)

40 Corps - 360 (Note fact that improvement of command from 8 to 9, is not as big gain as it seems - practically You need to choose between proper command (4 divisions - 8/9) or slightly overloaded (5 divisions - 10/9)

12 Armies - 324 (And one leaves in autumn of '42)



So average Corps have 9,5/9 command points (practically, because of using divisions instead of mix of div and brigades situation is slightly worse) - Theoretically You can get 4 HQ with 4 div (8/9), 12 HQ with 4 div + 1 brig/reg and 24 HQ with 5 div (10/9). So 16 with good command and 24 slightly overloaded (by 1).


Average Army have 31,3/27 (late '42 it gets to 34,5/27). On Average overloaded by 4 and later 7 or 8.



Is it good?

[Schmart]

I haven't yet had any problems with over capacity playing as the Germans, You just have to know how to stretch everything to the limits.

In Apr 43, German Corps capacity goes up to 10 (5 Divs).

Also, Army and AG capacity also increases in 42, 43, 44. You will have have to attach more divisions direct to Army HQs. This is how I rotate units from the front (attach from Corps to Army HQ). Also, you can attach some Corps direct to AG HQs, rather than to Armies. I use this on quiet fronts to limit penalties. You also have 2 Finnish Armies. If possible, stretch these as much as you can by adding German units/Corps. You will not have enough Finnish Divs to fill even one of those Armies. Don't forget the other Allied Armies, especially the Hungarians. If you really have nothing left, rotate weak units to OKH.

[Mentor]

Why is it assumed by some that the game must be designed in a way that allows the player to distribute forces and remain under the C&C cap across the board? It seems obvious that it was a design decision to provide more forces than once has C&C capacity to manage (on both sides), and that it is up to the player to make decisions on how to manage this.

Making compromises to balance things out so that critical areas of the front are not overloaded is one of the most enjoyable aspects of this game, to me. If it became merely a shuffling exercise to smooth things out under the cap across the board then the game would not be as interesting.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Marquo

Do not overload the Axis HQs; rotate burnt out units to OKH command and replace with fresh ones

It is not as easy as it seems - it is necessary to use inferior Romanian, Hungarian and Italian HQs and it costs lots of AP. On the top of that Germans need to maintain constant rotation due to inability to refit in enemy's ZOC.

Flaviusx

Oh? STAVKA overloads in late 1941 and never gets below cap after that. Front command capacity never quite catches up, either, although it is manageable by mid 1943. (You'll still have more units than can be fit in.)

The Red Army has to get by mostly on a single layer of command -- the army.

German C&C is light years ahead of this.

Mid '42 - I hope I counted units properly



Germans:

184 Divisions, 3 brigades and 9 regiments - overall 380 pts (I do not count security forces)

40 Corps - 360 (Note fact that improvement of command from 8 to 9, is not as big gain as it seems - practically You need to choose between proper command (4 divisions - 8/9) or slightly overloaded (5 divisions - 10/9)

12 Armies - 324 (And one leaves in autumn of '42)



So average Corps have 9,5/9 command points (practically, because of using divisions instead of mix of div and brigades situation is slightly worse) - Theoretically You can get 4 HQ with 4 div (8/9), 12 HQ with 4 div + 1 brig/reg and 24 HQ with 5 div (10/9). So 16 with good command and 24 slightly overloaded (by 1).


Average Army have 31,3/27 (late '42 it gets to 34,5/27). On Average overloaded by 4 and later 7 or 8.



Is it good?

Sorry to say it but you should know by now this game is run by Russian carebears and asking for anything German, your labeled a crazy fool.

German C & C as anyone with an open mind knows is 100% not reflected in this game Kamil, plus allot of other things.

AP's as German player are far to short to even bother tring to balance things out, you are forsed to spend all AP's building forts from 42 on or you will get rolled quickly, because of the over rating of Rifle corp's.

Again I tried with many subjects talking facts but as always the Red carebear machine defends the non historical sillyness time and time again.

Russian C&C was zero, Stalin was a nut job who micro managed the war from the top. Troops attacked and died or were shot by their own officers for retreating. I have posted this Stalin order alrdy on the forums. They were shot and their family's.

Thanks for tring, but dont expect any debate on the issue only personal attacks from the Red CB's.

Pelton

[mmarquo]

"Russian C&C was zero, Stalin was a nut job who micro managed the war from the top."

Really? And you think that the Axis was any better? Hilter assuming command of OKH which should have been subordinate to OKW; multiple generals dismised on a whim; the ss as a functional different and separate fighting force, pathetic "festung...stand fast and die orders", etc.

I beleive that units in the frontlines do get a chance at refit; but what does one expect? Russia is immense and units need to be withdrawn from the front to be refit. The most significant proAxis fan boy distortion this game has is that German units do not have to be shipped back west to France to refit for several months to get any significant benefit from refit at all. And after June 1944 the ability to refit should be drastically reduced as France is no longer a refit vacation.

I think this game is good at forcing the Axis to create OKW reserves; if the front is too big, then maybe you are in too deep....[X(]

Marquo

[randallw]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Russian C&C was zero, Stalin was a nut job who micro managed the war from the top."

Really? And you think that the Axis was any better? Hilter assuming command of OKH which should have been subordinate to OKW; multiple generals dismised on a whim; the ss as a functional different and separate fighting force, pathetic "festung...stand fast and die orders", etc.

The most significant proAxis fan boy distortion this game has is that German units do not have to be shipped back west to France to refit for several months to get any significant benefit from refit at all. And after June 1944 the ability to refit should be drastically reduced as France is no longer a refit vacation.

Marquo

Funny how he doesn't rant about that not being in the game. Must be those Axis loving "rednecks", to borrow his phrase.

Funny how as the war went on. Hitler interfered more and more, while Stalin did the opposite.

One of those dirty little secrets that escapes the disgruntled.

[Aurelian]

Double post

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Funny how as the war went on. Hitler interfered more and more, while Stalin did the opposite.

I think that Stalin still interfered in operational matters, but the difference was he had more competent commanders running his fronts.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Russian C&C was zero, Stalin was a nut job who micro managed the war from the top."

Really? And you think that the Axis was any better? Hilter assuming command of OKH which should have been subordinate to OKW; multiple generals dismised on a whim; the ss as a functional different and separate fighting force, pathetic "festung...stand fast and die orders", etc.

I beleive that units in the frontlines do get a chance at refit; but what does one expect? Russia is immense and units need to be withdrawn from the front to be refit. The most significant proAxis fan boy distortion this game has is that German units do not have to be shipped back west to France to refit for several months to get any significant benefit from refit at all. And after June 1944 the ability to refit should be drastically reduced as France is no longer a refit vacation.

I think this game is good at forcing the Axis to create OKW reserves; if the front is too big, then maybe you are in too deep....[X(]

Marquo

Regarding your comment about France holiday refit area, the main reason the units where brought for refit to France was to provide garrison troops while doing so AND to have a reserve ready to beat of the Allied invasion should it be launched.
I really don't think that it France was chosen because units were unable to refit in Russia, Germany or Poland.

[paullus99]

Funny how Pelton rants & raves, yet I don't seem to see a lot of Russian units in Berlin, as opposed to tons of Germans in Moscow......

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Funny how as the war went on. Hitler interfered more and more, while Stalin did the opposite.

I think that Stalin still interfered in operational matters, but the difference was he had more competent commanders running his fronts.

He did at times, but still gave the RKKA more freedom in planning etc while Hitler went the other way.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Russian C&C was zero, Stalin was a nut job who micro managed the war from the top."

Really? And you think that the Axis was any better? Hilter assuming command of OKH which should have been subordinate to OKW; multiple generals dismised on a whim; the ss as a functional different and separate fighting force, pathetic "festung...stand fast and die orders", etc.

I beleive that units in the frontlines do get a chance at refit; but what does one expect? Russia is immense and units need to be withdrawn from the front to be refit. The most significant proAxis fan boy distortion this game has is that German units do not have to be shipped back west to France to refit for several months to get any significant benefit from refit at all. And after June 1944 the ability to refit should be drastically reduced as France is no longer a refit vacation.

I think this game is good at forcing the Axis to create OKW reserves; if the front is too big, then maybe you are in too deep....[X(]

Marquo

Regarding your comment about France holiday refit area, the main reason the units where brought for refit to France was to provide garrison troops while doing so AND to have a reserve ready to beat of the Allied invasion should it be launched.
I really don't think that it France was chosen because units were unable to refit in Russia, Germany or Poland.

Up until D-Day, France was used as a rest/refit/reserve area for the East. One of the things that you don't see in the game was that German units stayed in line till they were burned to their core, then withdrawn. (IIRC my decades old reading.)

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Funny how Pelton rants & raves, yet I don't seem to see a lot of Russian units in Berlin, as opposed to tons of Germans in Moscow......

But but, the Axis are not suppossed to have the freedom to do that. Or take Leningrad. Guess the "redneck Russian fanboy carebears" slipped up.