Simple Fix for German Raiding

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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DTomato
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Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by DTomato »

There is a serious problem with the HQ buildup/Soviet factory evacuation dynamic. As it stands, the Germans only need to move a single panzer regiment next to Kharkov or Stalino to pin down 50 factories. They don't need to take the city. Just stay adjacent for a turn until reinforcements arrive. So the Germans have every incentive to buildup and send the tanks out on totally ahistorical factory-hunting expeditions.

So here is a simple solution. Allow Soviet factories to be evacuated even if German units are adjacent to the city. If the Germans want the factories, they will have to cut the rail lines. They can do this, especially with HQ buildup. But they will have to work a little harder than sending a lone panzer division on a raid. For the Soviets, this would lead to more realistic play. They would have an incentive to fight to keep factory cities from being encircled as long as possible.
jaw
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by jaw »

Let's see we have an unrealistic rule (HQ Buildup) which leads to unrealistic tactics (panzer raid) and the solution is to change a realistic rule (can't evacuate factories if enemy is besieging you). Am I the only one that sees a problem with that?
DTomato
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by DTomato »

Let me get this straight. Moving a single panzer regiment next to Stalingrad means that the entire city is besieged?
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76mm
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: DicedT

Let me get this straight. Moving a single panzer regiment next to Stalingrad means that the entire city is besieged?

I guess it depends on your definition of besieged. It does mean that you can't move factories out...
DTomato
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by DTomato »

A city is not besieged just because a German armored car appears 10 miles away.

In the real world, cities are besieged when the attacker cuts the routes into and out of the city. In WITE, all you need to do is move adjacent. That doesn't make any sense, and it leads to bizarre game play. Let's fight like hell to stick a panzer division out of supply just to keep the Soviets from evacuating. Let's set the Soviet defense lines up not to keep cities from being encircled, but to keep a lone panzer division from moving adjacent to the factories.
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Flaviusx
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Flaviusx »

I don't think this goes far enough, but it's a real point. The inability to rail factories from a city that is merely placed in zoc surely encourages raids.

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PeeDeeAitch
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by PeeDeeAitch »

I agree. I dislike the whole "we need to do this in order to have a chance" sort of play. Hell, just make HQ buildup not allowed until turn 10, quadruple the AP cost, and make the number of trucks that get lose actually mean something. Then lets see the raids.
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JAMiAM
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by JAMiAM »

How about defending in depth, with rear cities garrisoned by something of substance and with deep strategic reserves that can move in, and stomp the raiders? It's not that hard to rout away a strung out Pz Division, if you keep reserves about. Do that a few times and you'll likely get the raiding Hun to change back to a more sustainable and realistic form of play.
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Flaviusx »

Yeah, I drop a division on pretty much any city within 15 hexes of the front.

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DTomato
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by DTomato »

It's not garrisoning the city that's the problem. It's garrisoning the six hexes adjacent to it. We're talking here about significant forces needed to keep a panzer regiment from halting evacuation. Defend in depth? You can't defend in depth everywhere. The Germans don't need to achieve a massive breakthrough. Just enough of a penetration to get a unit adjacent to a factory city until reinforcements arrive.

Counterattacking panzer raiders is easy? Not in my experience. But even if true, it's the threat of factory busting that helps distort the game. Instead of concentrating on forming sensible defense lines in depth, the Soviets have to worry about a couple of raiders popping up next to Kharkov. Counterattack the raiders? Sure, let's rearrange the entire Soviet defense system to muster a counterattack to save the factories.
lastdingo
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by lastdingo »

I'm sorry, but I saw factories being evacuated by AI when I had entirely surrounded Kharkov - all six neighbouring hexes had 1-3 German divisions. The Soviet AI still evacuated the tank factory and all else.

I say THAT is a bug that cries out loud for a fix!
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by heliodorus04 »

Once again, the Soviet fanbois want the German to be limited to what he accomplished in history, while the Soviet fanboi player gets complete benefit of history to avoid his side's mistakes (C&C, can put any leader he wants anywhere, can build any support units he wants at any time, can overwhelm the German air force with bi-planes).

To some of you fanbois, it seems as though it's not enough that the German is doomed to lose: It's not enough until the guy playing the German isn't having any fun playing.

HQ buildup is the ONLY strategic tool in Germany's arsenal (AND it's available to the Soviet in the EXACT same form). Neuter it, and you'd better be neutering something SERIOUS on the Soviet side, else you're just throwing dirt in people's eyes who want to enjoy playing the losing side.

How about this:
You get to evacuate factories according to their historical timetable, and nothing else. Then you can neuter HQ buildup.
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Pawlock »

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Once again, the Soviet fanbois want the German to be limited to what he accomplished in history, while the Soviet fanboi player gets complete benefit of history to avoid his side's mistakes (C&C, can put any leader he wants anywhere, can build any support units he wants at any time, can overwhelm the German air force with bi-planes).

To some of you fanbois, it seems as though it's not enough that the German is doomed to lose: It's not enough until the guy playing the German isn't having any fun playing.

HQ buildup is the ONLY strategic tool in Germany's arsenal (AND it's available to the Soviet in the EXACT same form). Neuter it, and you'd better be neutering something SERIOUS on the Soviet side, else you're just throwing dirt in people's eyes who want to enjoy playing the losing side.

How about this:
You get to evacuate factories according to their historical timetable, and nothing else. Then you can neuter HQ buildup.

And once again one of the more vocal Axis fanboys are whining, oh wait what a suprise.

Lemme see, apart from a small fix to HQ b/up recently , and by recently most patches for want of a better word have been nerfing Soviets, blizzard rules, factory evac doubling, fort restrictions, armaments modifiers, 2:1 rule moral changes to name but a few. Seems like us soviet fanboys are getting it all our own way[8|] If HQ buildup is being gamed it needs looking at.
As for soviets using hq b/up, you show your naivity by even suggesting soviets could use it. In the real world no soviet player could use it until perhap 44 onwards when they have trucks.
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by PeeDeeAitch »

I admit it, I am a soviet fanboy. That is why I play so poorly as the Axis.
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Pawlock
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Pawlock »

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I admit it, I am a soviet fanboy. That is why I play so poorly as the Axis.


I think most people would argue against that, not many people create the mega Kiev pocket you did on me.
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KenchiSulla
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by KenchiSulla »

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

How about this:
You get to evacuate factories according to their historical timetable, and nothing else. Then you can neuter HQ buildup.

The issue with that is that the axis player doesn't have to play by timetable... And you would know when what can be evacuated.

The nature of the problem is more complex. People are creative and are constantly trying to find a way to win. Take away HQ buildup and the soviets would gain the upperhand.. Limit evacuating and the axis will crush the soviet rifle divisions up 1943 because they don't have heavy weapons..

You guys are discussing balancing issues with the 1.05 beta being a newborn... Play more turns before you make up your mind..
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heliodorus04
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by heliodorus04 »

I use the word fanboi because that's what everyone accused me of being for the German side when I advocated for balancing. I play both sides, and I'm undefeated as the Soviet in 5 campaigns. The 1.04 game was so horrifically lop-sided that it defied credulity, and thus, it was changed- changed massively- because the Soviets were able to milk so much ahistoric leverage out of the game mechanics. The only games that looked close to historical were games where an experienced German player took on an inexperienced Soviet player.

I remain on the fence regarding the armament point multiplier possibly being too severe, but we shall see in time. The rest of the changes were in fact long overdue, and the Soviet fanbois became weaker players because it took so long to balance things for playability. Maybe the root cause of Soviet whining is that they became atrophied from such an easy game, and the whining is a logical extension of acquired weakness of thought.

The Soviet side had every single game mechanic stacked in his favor starting on turn 18, and in fact, still does. The German gets 17-24 turns to do something regarding factories, and then there's nothing more he can do on factories for the rest of the game.

The German gets weaker every turn after t1, the Soviet gets stronger, yet still, the German is too powerful! German players were ROUTINELY surrendering prior to the historical start of Case Blue, and now that there is re-balancing to address that, fanboi-babies act like the German can reach Vladivostok on T5.

Before ANYONE waits to see how the macro game plays out, now we have Soviet whiners, who already have EVERYTHING stacked in their favor compared to the mechanics the Axis face, complaining that there pwecious factowies can actually be fixed in place so they can be captured.

Human beings respond to incentives. WitE has only 3 incentives for Axis gameplay.
1) Take Leningrad to survive the winter in the North via Fins.
2) Kill or capture 3.5 million Soviets by blizzard to avoid horrific blizzard counter-attacks.
3) Destroy X number of factories of armament points (since the mathematics prove nothing else matters in production, long term) in order to slow down the growth rate of the Soviet army over the next 100 turns or so. X used to be 100, and now X is unknown given the new factory multiplier.

If you're going to take something away from the Axis side (like HQ buildup), you have to either give an incentive, or also remove something from the Soviet side.

I simply cannot believe the oleaginous thought-processes of Soviet fanbois. Anything the German player can do that can hurt the Soviet side they want to be removed from the game (except combat, apparently).

The Soviet fanboi attitude is ruining this title. Such a sense of entitlement- they act as though there's nothing they should have to EARN for their side. So many act as though the game should simply beat the Germans without them having to do anything.

I'm aware of Pelton's novel approach and how problematic it can be, but to remove HQ buildup entirely, or to give the Soviet even MORE freedom to pack up shop and move stuff east, this is a solution that destroys German fun, and I am an unashamed advocate that German players deserve to have a game that is fun to play.

Soviet fanbois do not think of the impact their wild ideas will have on German players - your own actual opponents. How many of you are aware that if the Soviet has a ZOC anywhere along an axis rail line, an FBD unit cannot repair anywhere past that Soviet ZOC along that line? Even if a friendly unit is on that ZOC hex, AND the FBD unit is 5 hexes from the ZOC and surrounded entirely by friendly territory/units. This is the same issue in action for your side, with a far larger impact on the axis. Hold up my FBD unit by a turn and you've restricted my geographical advance by 5 full hexes, which, over time, compounds into a major problem.

You're asking that it be REQUIRED for the German to either entirely surround a city, or to take it in direct combat, in order to be able to keep a factory from being relocated. You are asking that the German advance panzer thrust have no relevant impact at all on your strategic planning. For god's sake, listen to yourselves!





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Flaviusx
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Flaviusx »

Nobody is suggesting that buildups be removed from the game entirely. I have not. I think it needs to adjusted somehow, which is a very different thing altogether. This hysterical ostrich defense of it in its present form is dishonest and unconstructive. Axis players would do themselves more favors here recognizing that it's extremely problematic and coming up with good ideas of how to tame it.



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heliodorus04
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Nobody is suggesting that buildups be removed from the game entirely. I have not. I think it needs to adjusted somehow, which is a very different thing altogether. This hysterical ostrich defense of it in its present form is dishonest and unconstructive. Axis players would do themselves more favors here recognizing that it's extremely problematic and coming up with good ideas of how to tame it.



Agreed.

Pelton's creativity exposes something that is unfun for the Soviet player to have to deal with (and a-historic on a scale that I believe is not justified by the 'aggregation of play aspects'). Giving the Soviet player more flexibility that the German will not share is not an answer (speaking to Factory re-locations from ZOCs). Removing a German operational tool (Buildup) is not the answer.

I think fixes might be something akin to these:
-HQ buildup requires all corps(Army for Soviet) units to remain stationary for the entire turn.
-HQ buildup must be done as the first thing on your turn
-HQ buildup can only be used once per Army/Panzer Gruppe (Front for Soviet) per turn.
-Divisions/regiments that change HQ are not eligible for HQ buildup during the turn they change HQ.

The goal needs to be to fix ONLY what's broken.

HQ buildup is an awesome tool that gives the German (I've never used it as Soviet) tremendous ability to change his operational emphasis (or maximize it, if it's consistent) between turns. In a game where the Soviet has a much easier time avoiding disasters than his historical predecessor, it is essential that the German have some ability to create an operational feint.

Soviet players have to understand that Armament Factories are 1 of the 3 incentives that the Axis has to emphasize: You must emphasize your defense around them as well. It should be difficult to prioritize, and there should be consequence for failure to do so.
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Flaviusx
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RE: Simple Fix for German Raiding

Post by Flaviusx »

I've used it as the Sov, but never before late 1943. And the Soviet truck situation is such that it must be used sparingly even if you've got the APs to burn, something which doesn't happen until late in the game.

The Red Army is driven differently than the Wehrmacht anyways -- it's the artillery divisions and rifle corps that are the real backbone of the army, and getting too far ahead of these with your mobile units is asking for trouble, German mobile reserves will punish you. I remember Bob's infamous rescue of 1. Panzer Army back in testing days quite vividly...

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