Most complex board wargame simulation ever?

Zyrhe · Post by **Zyrhe** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:55 pm

I've still got my copy of Strategic Publications, Inc.'s 1976 publication of War in Europe. Anyone remember that one? For the campaign game it has 8 or 9 large maps that it would require 2 4x8 sheets of plywood in order to lay them all out. If memory serves, the game has over 2,000 counters and 4 separate rule books.

I was never actually able to find anyone else willing to take the time to learn how to play it, so it remains a virgin.

It is possible that there exists a more complex simulation than that?

Zyrhe

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:03 am

Hmm Fire in the East weighs in at 10K counters and a 6'x8' map on several panels.

And while that is impressive, it isn't the whole game possible.
Europa adds Fall of France to the mix another massive influx of counters and a large map area.
Then there is the Urals add on, yet more map.
I still have Merita Merkur which provides the Balkan regions of Europe and yes lots of counters.
And I have Western Desert with its long band of maps and again oodles of counters.

If you look at any of the game boxes you can seen an image of all the map potential of this ultra monster wargame.

Not sure how it rates complexity wise though, the rules design is fairly standard as divisional based games go.
Size is after all not the total determining factor.

I have Longest Day, a stunning 5.5 x 5' mounted map game. Again with the 10k counters supply and largely all each counter being unique as well (except for a small sum of misc counters).
But the game is really a straightforward design rules wise. I actually consider it one of my easier to learn wargames.

Pacific War is a challenge just finding someplace to locate the myriad organizational charts used in the course of the game.

But when it comes to just an issue of complexity and not a measure of the size of the map or the density of the counters, I think the hands down winner has to be Advanced Third Reich. With the Research manual from Rising Sun thrown in, it easily masters the competition.
World in Flames is a very close second place though and can claim to be the only global contender of merit.

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:51 am

Id love to get into boargames...unfortunatly I will never have any luck finding an opponent

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:17 am

Come on Fallschirmjager surely you have seen my sig line

Paratrooper · Post by **Paratrooper** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:33 pm

Originally posted by Zyrhe
It is possible that there exists a more complex simulation than that?

Despite it huge size, SPI's War in Europe is not that difficult to learn or play. IIRC it rated a '4' on the complexity scale - 10 being the most complex.

I agree with Les GDW(?)s Fire in the East by itself is quite possibly the most complex boardgame to learn and play.

NefariousKoel · Post by **NefariousKoel** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:25 am

In my experiences the most difficult (and pain in the ***) tabletop I've ever seen was Europa Universalis.

Not only were the rules and bookkeeping downright insane, it was a bad translation from French to English. Just plain unwieldy.

It still sits practically untouched on a shelf in the basement glaring at me.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:34 pm

Ahhh well there is a difference between difficult/complex to play and enjoy, and difficult/complex to merely understand hehe.

A3R is about as complex as it gets either way.

It is no easy rulebook to master, nor any simple game to actually play.

I can't immediately recall any game that was simply just to hard to understand though.

Bunker22 · Post by **Bunker22** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:08 pm

Well, regarding complexity, I have to agree with Les that nothing, absolutely nothing beats Advanced Third Reich

Fredflak · Post by **Fredflak** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:26 pm

Fallschirmjager I have the exact same problem. I own a few war boardgames, but hard to find players. I collect them even tho I don't play them with someone. PBEM is always a solution with things like cyberboard.

Tho if anybody here who plays boardgames is in the Quebec City area, which I doubt, i'm always looking for players.

As for complex, I guess it depends on what you consider complex. Havent played Advanced Third Reich, only the original Third Reich and that wasnt very complex, mostly just very chess like, a mistake and your gone.

I'll throw my vote with War in Europe for the monster size. And John Prados's Third Reich, the new edition by Avalanche Press, because of the bad rule book which is extremely confusing. Very fun game once you figure it our tho.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:37 pm

If you know John Proados Third Reich then you actually already know Advanced Third Reich as it is not original Third Reich but a revamped edition of Advanced Third Reich also referred to as "Classic" Advanced Third Reich.

I am impressed though hehe, not many people will refer to even original Third Reich as not very complex hehe.

It earned its 10 rating then, and definitely deserves it now.

Fredflak · Post by **Fredflak** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:46 pm

I guess I just don't evaluate something as complex like most poeple do. Third Reich could be said to be complex because it doesnt forgive mistakes you made.

And if the new John Prados version is based on the Advanced one, then it's not really that complex either. Only the rulebook is a mess, and hard to find information in it.

To me a complex game would be one with too many differant charts, confusing rule book, very large map and lots of units. Hum... guess a game becomes complex for me when its too big and confusing.

Kent Pfeiffer · Post by **Kent Pfeiffer** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:33 pm

Well, there's always A World at War. It's A3R combined with Rising Sun plus a lot of additional chrome. The rulebook is supposedly around 200 pages. It was just released this month by GMT Games.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:09 pm

And the last price I saw for A World at War almost gave me heart failure hehe.

The "cheap" P500 rate from GMT is 148 bucks (US I am thinking), and the pay at the door price is 178 bucks (again US but at this point does it matter?).

Let's just say I am frickin glad I have a copy of original A3R and glad of it.

Lets see, if I actually had 178 bucks US what would I do with it?
Buy myself the dvd burner I have been lusting after, not a slightly rebuilt board game I already own the best part of eh.

And yes there are some that think Rising Sun was the weak link in the globalization process of the design.

Fredflak · Post by **Fredflak** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:35 pm

Had the same reaction when I saw that. Boardgames sure are expensive. Probably because it doesn't have a huge market, and well they need to make some money.

The only boardgame that i've been very tempted to get lately is Totaler Krieg. I like the system and how it plays. Only problem is finding players.

Also thinking of getting the package deal on all the boxes for Panzer Grenadier, already have the first one and its not in the package deal. Saves almost 50 percent.

I checked the vasl link on your sig Les. Looks good, too bad that the ASL games are so hard to find. Been curious about it a lot. The only box that I ever saw was the Solitaire box that is in a local store, kinda useless without the rules, maps and counters.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:18 pm

ASL is about the only game that when called elitist I have to just let the person say it hehe.

Only a very select few can say they have the series, and it ain't for the squeemish to purchase after the fact.

Fredflak · Post by **Fredflak** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:23 pm

I kept looking for the rule book and some of the modules but couldnt find it.

I missed a chance to buy two of the Deluxe modules, I saw them in a store, but when I saw that they needed the regular modules I decided to wait and try to find the others first. But I never did and these deluxe modules eventually vanished. Would have bought them anyway, I started to collect wargames, buy everything I see in stores when I go shopping.

One that i'm hesitating about is the Victory serie, i'm curious about them if they are any fun. Not too sure on how they use blocks.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:43 pm

Victory most secure use of your wargaming dollar ever dude.

I am more than willing to call it the best wargame released in the 90's.

There is not enough kind things I can say about it.

If you want, they have a budding new forum at Columbia Games too.

http://games.harnforum.com/

The game is pure enjoyment. The blocks stand upright concealing their identity and status. Ensures fog of war in a simple easy manner. The rules are perhaps the easiest wargame rules ever written. It takes longer to learn to play Axis and Allies

There is no historical bias involved, when you lose at a game of Victory, its because your opponent was better. It simulates WW2 style combat, but it really is just military force vs military force.

The game is expandable beyond its base game package of 2 player mix. It can handle 6 players easy if you get the needed amount of expansion sets.

This game is perfect.

Fredflak · Post by **Fredflak** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:48 pm

Will have to check it out then. They have all of the Victory games at the store I go to. Will grab one of them. Any suggestions on which front to grab first? Any of them better than the other?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:02 am

Hmm by Front that sounds like not Victory The Blocks of War but its more serious cousins.

I have East Front (first in series) and West Front and Mediteranean Front.

Together they make a nice set. But they are a wargamers wargame while Victory is more introductory friendly for friends that might lack wargaming savvy and experience.

If fortune finds you locating a copy of Rommel in the Desert though grab it. Best block game they have, but long off the market.

I have no experience with their other block games but find it hard to believe that could be any less good.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:37 am

Originally posted by Fredflak
too bad that the ASL games are so hard to find. Been curious about it a lot. The only box that I ever saw was the Solitaire box that is in a local store, kinda useless without the rules, maps and counters.

You can pick up a lot of the ASL series, including the rules, on eBay from time to time, but ASL is a horribly expensive habit. By the time you get the 3-ring binder rules, the first module, "Beyond Valor," and some of the follow-ons to flesh the thing out, you're in for at least a couple of hundred bucks, even for used, punched games. Then, if you get really into it, you can start on the "deluxe" series and the new Multi-Man Publishing stuff. A thousand dollars American will evaporate like a friendly welcome to Iraq.

No wonder you complain so much about being broke all the time, Les, you nine/minus-one wonder, you.

Most complex board wargame simulation ever?

Most complex board wargame simulation ever?

Re: Most complex board wargame simulation ever?