The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

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el lobo
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The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

Post by el lobo »

Welcome Everyone,

Rio Bravo and I are starting our PBEM. His AAR is titled “The War College” and can be found here:

tm.asp?m=3851786

We have one HR, “Auto-Victory will not count.” (Or something like that, i.e. we will play to the end.) This leaves the game pretty wide-open.

On the Forum there seems to be two general definitions of gamey. One, “anything that is non-historical.” Guilty. Anything that I do historically will be purely by accident.

Two, “anything that is not realistic in RL.” To this I say, many in this forum have praised the Devs, rightly so, in creating a game with such realism, attention to detail, and accuracy. I would add to this praise by congratulating the Devs with creating a game with so many parameters and decision points and, not limiting the game to others' expectations. Anyone who plays this game historically, does so by choice. Anyone who deviates from history but limits themselves to reality, does so by choice. The Devs gave us a game to play as we choose. For me, if the Devs left a door open, I'm going through it.

All of this has been thoroughly discussed with Rio and we are in agreement.

Will this give me an unfair advantage? Probably at first, but it will even-out at the end. As Bullwinkle58 has stated many times (paraphrasing), in the game, nothing happens without consequences. And as many others have said, Pax among them, Japan has just so much and no more.

We are playing this way because we want a game that is wide-open and fun. My play-style is going to be considered gamey by most players here and I just want to be upfront with that, like the title says.

Having said all of that, this is my first game of WITPAE or any other game of this type. The most I have played against the AI is one-hundred turns. Any experienced player here would slaughter me in an instant. IOW, I'll need all the help I can get.

Settings: Stock Game, Scenario 2, FOW = On, Advanced Wx = On, Allied Damage Control = Off, PDU = On, Historical 1st Turn = Off, Dec Surprise = Off, Reliable USN Torps = Nope, Realistic R&D = On, No Unit Withdraw = Off, and Reinforcements Fixed for both.

Rio is invited to drop-by and afterwards I hope some of you stick around to help me out.

So, with no apologies, let the GAME begin.

El Lobo
[font="Arial"][/font]
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by Mundy »

Good Luck...have fun.

Ed
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by witpqs »

Good luck! [:)]

I think I popped in there just after you signed out.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by Mike McCreery »

I like you already!!

The point is to have fun!

You forgot the third definition of Gamey... Anything effective done to a complaining opponent.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by Rio Bravo »

Hello Everyone-

El Lobo and I have been good friends for fifty-two years. Like most good friends, we have had tons of experiences and fun together. We decided to play this game for two reasons. First and foremost is to have more fun. Secondly, is because this game is vastly intricate and provides countless options for freedom of choice. The last thing either of us wanted was for this game to damage our friendship. Accordingly, we decided to play a non-historical game with the perspective that anything the game mechanically allows is open to us without any fear of our actions being considered “Gamey” by either of us. To that end, I can only say that if El Lobo sinks so much as one of my carriers I am crossing his name off my Christmas card list!

I know that I am up to my hip boots in quicksand battling against El Lobo. He was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, a Captain of a Fire Department in the Sacramento, California area, an entrepreneur in real estate and in developing, owning, and running two coffee shops. Les has always paid fastidious attention to detail, is analytical, and will take calculated risks; the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward must be. Anything El Lobo does he does well. I have always felt fortunate and proud to have El Lobo as a fun and loyal friend.

It is not only important to us that we have great fun playing this game, but it is also important to us that all of you, each of you, also have fun through interaction with us and everyone else that might choose to follow our After Action Reports.

The best to you my good friend, El Lobo and the best to everyone involved in WITPAE as you have provided both El Lobo and I with countless hours of enjoyable reading, fun, and outstanding entertainment. Also, a big hug and thank you to my fiancé (Deborah) for buying me this game and for not cutting off my balls because I spend so much time with this game.

In conclusion, let the lead fly and may the Rising Sun set to never rise again!

Regards,

-Terry


"No one throws me my own guns and tells me to run. No one."

-Bret (James Coburn); The Magnificent Seven
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el lobo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Good Luck...have fun.

Ed
Thanks Mundy. Will do.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good luck! [:)]

I think I popped in there just after you signed out.
Thanks. Yes I noticed you in the AAR section.

Out of habit I clicked on Rio's AAR thread to see your response there and then thought, Crap I can't be in this thread anymore! Quickly exited and lesson learned.

I am presently reading your "Rumble in the Southwest" to get the other side's perspective. Damn, you're good. Glad I am not playing against you.

I have Intel Monkey installed and can't wait to use it.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

I like you already!!

The point is to have fun!

You forgot the third definition of Gamey... Anything effective done to a complaining opponent.
That is definitely a good one that I missed. I hope Rio does a lot of complaining.

Thanks for dropping-by.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

Thank you Rio for your kind words. Just hope I can live-up to them.

I have to admit that it took Terry a while to convince me to get this game. I was reluctant for various reasons but now I am glad he persisted. Like him, I too have had countless hours of enjoyment and looking forward to many more. I have been on many forums in the past and I can sling insults with the best of them but this forum is a breath of fresh air. So many people willing to help, no question too dumb, and lots of intelligent and knowledgeable members (game-wise, war-wise, and world-wise).

It also took a little convincing by him for me to do an AAR. But for the same reasons as above, I am willing to lay-out all of my dumb mistakes for the world to see. I'm just hoping that I can make a war and AAR interesting enough to be worthy of this Forum.

So Rio, until I see you in RL over our next bottle of tequila, let's get it on. Cho di Krup (Good luck).

El Lobo

BTW Terry. Can you send me Deborah's email address? I want to tell her that it is OK to cut your balls off.
[font="Arial"][/font]
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by Lowpe »

Have fun!

Kick that western dude out so we can talk plane research! Ship upgrades! How to pocket the thundering herd!

And of course the Vancouver Gambit![:D]
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Have fun!

Kick that western dude out so we can talk plane research! Ship upgrades! How to pocket the thundering herd!

And of course the Vancouver Gambit![:D]
Thanks.

It's funny that you should mention that. When I started getting used to the game I decided that my first attack would be Seattle. I had a pretty good plan going then I came across Bullwinkle's Emergency Reinforcement thread. That killed that idea but Rio and I talked about it and we have decided to do it some day and we will disable the reinforcements via the editor first (if that can be done).

Will you settle for the Mersing Gambit? I just got the first turn back so off to see how it went.

Looking forward to plane research, ship upgrade (ugh) and thundering herd discussions. Need all the help I can get.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by BattleMoose »

Always happy to see another AAR going about.

Just wondering what kind of gamey tactics might be expected. Sending expendable xAK fleets at the KB to deplete it of torpedoes or similar could prove to be effective, particularly with LRCAPs.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Always happy to see another AAR going about.

Just wondering what kind of gamey tactics might be expected. Sending expendable xAK fleets at the KB to deplete it of torpedoes or similar could prove to be effective, particularly with LRCAPs.
Well BattleMoose, this is an interesting question and these types of questions bring fourth many different points of view.

To answer it directly, I am not sure if I would do a tactic like this or not. I am going to be gamey but to a point. I am not sure where that point is yet but there is one. I probably would not do it with an xAK but what is the difference between a Kamikaze DD and a Kamikaze Zero?
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: el lobo

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Always happy to see another AAR going about.

Just wondering what kind of gamey tactics might be expected. Sending expendable xAK fleets at the KB to deplete it of torpedoes or similar could prove to be effective, particularly with LRCAPs.
Well BattleMoose, this is an interesting question and these types of questions bring fourth many different points of view.

To answer it directly, I am not sure if I would do a tactic like this or not. I am going to be gamey but to a point. I am not sure where that point is yet but there is one. I probably would not do it with an xAK but what is the difference between a Kamikaze DD and a Kamikaze Zero?

I think there is another reason for HRs not listed above that fits your objectives (to have fun with an old friend) really well; to make the game playable for both sides as you would expect it to play.

Things like the dive, night bombing (and night CAP losses against night bombing), target selection by naval strikes and naval combat routines make certain tactics very powerful and can reduce the fun of playing.

If one side uses 25 single PT boat TFs around an area those soak up ammo and ops of incoming surface forces and can keep you from having the exciting BB engagement you BOTH want to have, because it's fun. It's no fun to kill your good friend's CVs because he spent his strike missions hitting xAK pickets nearby. That doesn't feel good. It's not so much fun to be swept to oblivion by strato dives from max height, and this favors each side at different times in the war. An HR can help balance this out while still letting the airframes and pilots do what they can do.

There are hundreds of these subtle and not so subtle tactics that can be at least somewhat mitigated by using just a few HRs, and especially if you're playing with a friend, you can keep negotiating as you find those things. I've only slowly come to these conclusions, and it took a lot of negotiation, some difficult, to understand the worthy compromises. It sounds like you guys will be fine no matter what and work through anything that comes up though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

I think there is another reason for HRs not listed above that fits your objectives (to have fun with an old friend) really well; to make the game playable for both sides as you would expect it to play.

Things like the dive, night bombing (and night CAP losses against night bombing), target selection by naval strikes and naval combat routines make certain tactics very powerful and can reduce the fun of playing.

If one side uses 25 single PT boat TFs around an area those soak up ammo and ops of incoming surface forces and can keep you from having the exciting BB engagement you BOTH want to have, because it's fun. It's no fun to kill your good friend's CVs because he spent his strike missions hitting xAK pickets nearby. That doesn't feel good. It's not so much fun to be swept to oblivion by strato dives from max height, and this favors each side at different times in the war. An HR can help balance this out while still letting the airframes and pilots do what they can do.

There are hundreds of these subtle and not so subtle tactics that can be at least somewhat mitigated by using just a few HRs, and especially if you're playing with a friend, you can keep negotiating as you find those things. I've only slowly come to these conclusions, and it took a lot of negotiation, some difficult, to understand the worthy compromises. It sounds like you guys will be fine no matter what and work through anything that comes up though.

You are quite correct obvert and raise some very good points. I am going to copy your remarks and email them to Rio with the suggestion that we keep your thoughts in mind. As you say, we will not have difficulty working through any of these types of items that arise, and arise they will. Neither of us wants to be exploitative.

But, how about a single TF of twenty-five PTs to confuse the heck out of your opponent?[8D]

BTW I want to thank you for your AARs. Particularly "Wild Sheep Chase." It really helped me to decide which air frames I am going to produce. I always seem to find the AARs to late to thank you and others while they are active.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by pws1225 »

This game should be to my liking! My philosophy is that if it was historically plausible it isn't gamey, albeit with obvert's observations that certain tactics serve to exploit weaknesses in the game engine which HRs can prevent.

Have fun!
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: el lobo

BTW I want to thank you for your AARs. Particularly "Wild Sheep Chase." It really helped me to decide which air frames I am going to produce. I always seem to find the AARs to late to thank you and others while they are active.

It was a learning experience for me, and I'd gotten so much from others, as the game went and turned into a nearly full campaign, exploring and sharing all of that info and those discussions on choices became almost as fun as the game itself. Glad to hear it helped.

I look forward to your battles! [:)]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: pws1225

This game should be to my liking! My philosophy is that if it was historically plausible it isn't gamey, albeit with obvert's observations that certain tactics serve to exploit weaknesses in the game engine which HRs can prevent.

Have fun!
I hope so.

I agree with your philosophy but as you know, there is a lot of debate as to what was or was not plausible. if the Devs made it possible, then for me it's plausible. I just sent obvert's post to Rio. There is enough crazy stuff we can do with-out being exploitative.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: el lobo

BTW I want to thank you for your AARs. Particularly "Wild Sheep Chase." It really helped me to decide which air frames I am going to produce. I always seem to find the AARs to late to thank you and others while they are active.

It was a learning experience for me, and I'd gotten so much from others, as the game went and turned into a nearly full campaign, exploring and sharing all of that info and those discussions on choices became almost as fun as the game itself. Glad to hear it helped.

I look forward to your battles! [:)]
Well you write well, informative and entertaining and your opinions are well respected so thanks again and keep-up the good work.

First battle coming-up.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

I'm just not sure how I want to go about this AAR so for now I will just throw some stuff out and see how it goes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[center]PREFACE[/center]

I know that I am not telling most of you anything that you don't already know so I am going to preface this whole AAR with,

As you know----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the first turn, Dec 7, 1941.

I have sand-boxed this first turn many times and you get used to the AI doing certain things fairly regularly so the turn was not quite what I expected but it was OK.

I am doing the Mersing Gambit partly a la Quixote's “A Road Less Traveled”
( tm.asp?m=3380330&mpage=1&key=&#3380330 ) with a couple of my own twists.

The Magic Moves TFs are there for a historical start and a few Japanese players leave them as they are, others change them and others treat them like live snakes. You can move ships between them, add ships to them, redirect them, add ships and then load more troops, change their missions and make more of the missions types that you want. A brief rundown:

At Etorofu I split the KB and sent TF1 with the four fast CVs just east of Mersing. TF2 with the other two CVs went just east of Manila. I created an extra replenishment TFs, and the MM one went with TF1, and a SC TF went to San Fernando, P.I..

At Pescadoris TF8 ended-up as a twenty-one ship Amphib TF to San Fernando and TF12 ended-up as a thirty-nine ship Amphib TF to the same hex as TF1. (More on this later.)

At Takao, TF14 ended-up as an eighteen ship SC TF that went to Lubang. (TF19 disappeared.) TF 90 lost all of its SC ships added some more ships and troops and went to San Fernando accompanied by TF 96 which also added more ships and troops.

At Samah TF4 ended-up as a seven ship SC TF and went just south of Hong Kong where it did this,

Allied Ships
DD Scout, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Thanet, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
DD Thracian, Shell hits 19, and is sunk


TF7 took all of TF125's ships (not a MM TF) and went to the same hex as TF1. TF85 took a coupe of ships from TF108 and went to Kota Bharu as scheduled. TF91 went to Singora as scheduled. TFs 92 and 97 went to the same hex as TF1.

At Babeldaob TF3 dropped its DDs and went to CRB where is will upgrade its a/c and then act as an escort to Muri and area. TF98 at CRB went to Kota Bharu.

So now at hex 55,82, one hex north-east of Terempa Island, sits TF1 with its replenishment TF, and five other amphip TFs. I stopped the amphib TFs there for two reasons. First of all that's too many TFs at a time in one port trying to all unload at once. Second of all, nine times out of ten against the AI, force Z is sitting two hexes east of Mersing and even though the amphib is MM, it plowes through force Z on the way to Mersing, and they end-up at Mersing as if having been in a surface battle. Many damaged and sometimes some don't make it. The amphib TFs don't even phase force Z but the Air Combat TF usually does a number on them.

So I stopped them where I did, I will let TF1 clean-up the area, and will bring TFs 5 and 11 down to bombard and escort. I will split some DMSs out and send them in first and then send the amphip TFs into Mersing one at a time and have them unload troops only. (I'll bring the supplies back in a couple of days.)

This time no force Z. I think Rio's strategy is to bug-out and come back to fight another day. That doesn't always work. For example, at Babeldaob TF13 turned into a twenty ship Amphib TF but still had its original SC ships embedded. On their way to Cagayan they ran into a ship bugging-out and here is what happened.[font="Arial"][/font]

Day Time Surface Combat, near Siargao at 83,88, Range 20,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CS Mizuho
CS Chitose, Shell hits 1
CL Nagara, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yukikaze, Shell hits 2
DD Tokitsukaze, Shell hits 1
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
xAK Myoko Maru
xAK Shinanogawa Maru
xAK Shinryu Maru
xAK Kanko Maru
xAK Yasukawa Maru, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Hasuna Maru
xAK Meigen Maru
xAK Yamafuku Maru
xAKL Kakyu Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
xAP Haruna Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
CL Boise, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk


Rio's email to me after I sent him the Combat Report. I no have Boisie no more? *pouts and throws computer out the window*


TF1 did help the war effort with this.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Lingga at 51,87

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK Tai Sang, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Zannis Cambanis, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAKL Tatung, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Hong Kheng, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Wulin, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Neleus, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Silverbeech, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAKL Bust, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
xAK Demodocus, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Lyemun, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Marudu

All empty, no troop-loss.


My other focal point on day one was Manila and it was a miserable effort. This is typical.

Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 97 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 36
B5N2 Kate x 54
D3A1 Val x 45

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Port hits 5
Port supply hits 1


I had all of the fighters and bombers out of Takao targeted for Manila with very few flights and TF2 as above. Even on my worst day against the AI I would get a half-o'-dozen ships and subs but today, nada.

To me this means that the Wx was to bad or he bugged everything out. Rio loves his subs. Tomorrow will tell.

I am going to stop here. I can do maps or whatever else anyone wants so let me know. Tomorrow I will post my basic strategy.

Thanks to all who made it this far.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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