The Philosophy of Wargaming

[dr.hal]

I have a philosophy question for all of the forum folks in WITP. But first I need to give you some background. When I was studying back in the 80s it was at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. While there I met a lot of other international students, one of whom is a fellow from Japan whose name is Yoshio san. Back then we were still in the board game era. As a student of wargames since the early 60s I had with me my board games, one of which was “War in the Pacific” by Victory Games. As you probably know, this was the precursor to out present computer game. So it was pretty much like what we have today although very primitive with LOTS of playing pieces. I tried to get Yoshio san to play against me as I thought it would be interesting to have a Japanese national on one side and an American on the other! He politely heard my proposal and then studied the “rules” of the game. He came back to me later and said all the rules game him a headache, as it was all so complicated. He continued to tell me that, aside from the rules being a concern, he had decided that he couldn’t play the game. His rationale was very simple and easy to comprehend. He said “I can’t play such a game as it dishonors the dead.” He further stated that it makes “a game out of the sacrifices of so many people that it is not right”. I’ve often wondered about that conversation over the years (Yoshio san is still a very good friend of mine). Yet I’ve never been able to talk about that “philosophy” of gaming to anyone since; until now. So my question to you all (ya’ll for out southern players) is simple, does what we do dishonor those that died making this “game” possible? Do we make recreational fun out of the deaths of thousand upon thousands? Before I let this go, I have a disclaimer; I too have relatives that died in Pacific, an American uncle at Okinawa and Dutch relatives in the DEI and am somewhat aware of the sacrifice that others, even those close to my family, have made. I for one don’t think I do them dishonor. I see this whole concept of gaming as a way of better understanding their sacrifice. Yet, I’m always thinking in the back of my mind, is Yoshio san right? I look forward to your views. Hal

[Alfred]

Have a look at my last post in Canoerebel's AAR.

I don't quite share the Yoshio san view that playing AE per se dishonours the dead but I do believe many who do play AE, approach it in a manner which on one view, could be interpreted as dishonouring the dead (and for that matter the living who actual experience the horrows of war first hand).

Alfred

[aphrochine]

I've thought of this many times. I do not play wargames on Memorial Day out of respect for the sacrifice. I dont think it's an issue that is globally defined, and much of it resides in the reverence held by each individual gamer. For me, I have so much love and respect in my heart for those that fought and those that died in WW2. To me the era and the conflict has been the biggest catalyst for change in human history and there is nothing about the time to be triffled with. I tend to play WW2 wargames for this reason. It both satisfies my wish to be more connected to the time frame, and a never ending hunger to learn as much about the war as I can.

I have met many, mostly of the younger generation of 20'somethings, who hold no reverence for the time and see WW2 simply as a context for which they can "pew pew". This tends to bother me. Those "kids" do not understand the real nature of the content in which they enjoy blowing things up and it's almost an insult to those who sacrificed and those gamers' experience is rather amoral.

[Canoerebel]

I played the old Avalon Hill boardgame 'Midway" with my father, a World War II veteran. I can tell you that he certainly didn't think it was dishonring the dead. In fact, I think most World War II veterans would welcome the "tribute" given to the incredible struggle they participated in. Dishonor the dead? Heavens no. We are honoring them.

[Commander Stormwolf]

on war:

war is a wonderful phenomenon

keeps the jails empty,

lots of single girls when the peace is signed


on AE:

1) playing it helps to keep one's "military service" instincts down,
teaches the children to stay in school

2) learn about the thought process of politicians and strategic commanders during that time:

basically their thinking is a combination of sadism, apathy, and comedic cruelty

"oh.. we'll just land those marines on Tarawa.. 5,000 dead? no big deal"
- USMC

"let's move all our people to Russia! SNOW IS GOOD LEBENSRAUM!"
- A.H.

"you are already dead, you have died for the emperor"
- IJA instructor

"we stole all your money in 1929, but now you have to save us from hitler" - wall street bankers to US public

" we stole all your money in 1929, please dont put us into the gas chamber"
- wall street bankers to german public


3) learn about the alacrity in which circumstances can be changed

(takes years to build carriers, mere minutes to sink them)

4) AE helps to indicate how precious life truly is

and how easily lives and resources are carelessly spent for the aggrandizement of a few

WITP soldiers don't go to heaven, i doubt we do either

[obvert]

My interest in rekindling my own fascination and reverence for this conflict and the stories of those that fought in it came after watching Band of Brothers, and was later strengthened after seeing The Pacific. In my youth I read everything I could find about the campaigns, the individuals, the ships and planes that were used, and poured over maps of the battles. As I grew into my teenage years the interest in girls, alcohol and literature focusing on the same dominated my free time.

As an adult it was an interesting decision to start playing this game. At first I didn't know if it was irreverent or the opposite. I just knew it fulfilled a part of me I missed and that the community was engaging and incredibly knowledgeable, but also fun. I've since realized that the community is what separates this game from something that is just entertainment. I learn something here every day that gives me historical perspective, makes me delve further into individual stories, and brings me to a greater understanding and compassion for those who sacrificed or were affected by this conflict.

I also have realized how much the war period affected my own family, none of whom fought in the war itself, and I've gained so much more knowledge and interest in this history through my interaction with the game. My grandfather worked in the shipyards in Vancouver, WA, and helped to make Liberty ships, LSTs and CVEs there as foreman of a riveting team. I wish he were still around so I could ask him about it now. Which also makes me think I wish I'd started playing this game sooner, so I could have.

Even the detail of the game, though, makes me more in touch with the individuals that fought in it as well as the scope of the conflict. I don't think inherently playing a war-game is irreverent, but I do think that while doing that it's important to continually remember the real men and women who were there, their actual stories and sacrifices. This game and this community bring me into a closer relationship to those people and makes me continually amazed with the things they did then.

[Chickenboy]

I can understand some of your friend's reservations from the Japanese side. There was little good that came out of that war for them and the memory of it. 'Gaming' their past feelings and national destruction must be difficult for them, particularly if they lost family members in the conflict or the bombings of the home islands. "Dishonoring the Dead" may be the closest translated approximation of his feelings on the matter.

These are not my feelings. I do struggle with keeping an eye on the historical pain and suffering of the war when I play the Allies. This impacts my gameplay in that I won't / I can't 'throw away' the lives of my digital forces. Emotionalism? Perhaps. But that's the way I play.

It is difficult for me to balance aggressive tendencies against the Allies (particularly American forces) whilest playing the Japanese (or Germans). I *must* play to cause as much damage to the Allies as I can. I can't say that I've not felt a ping of guilt (shame?) when sinking the Enterprise or butchering Allied troops on the ground.

Dishonoring the dead? Not really. So long as an eye is kept on the real-life struggles and sacrifices modelled, it's not disrespectful. The problem is when we lose sight of those sacrifices and human loss. Wargaming prevents this slide into the oblivion of the forgotten past.

[KenchiSulla]

It is not "how" you approach this game. The game is an abstraction of the war (the strategic and tactical situation).. You can't begin to understand the suffering of the people involved by playing any game...

Walk through Auschwitz, go up the stairs in Mauthausen, visit the battleground Pearl Harbour, Arnhem, Oosterbeek, the Normandy beaches.. visit the war cemeteries all over the world. Look at the statistics, read the stories.... Thats the only way you can begin to understand the impact on peoples lives... and make you count your blessings.

I am not worried about people who approach this game as just another challenge.. A way to quench their "intellectuel" thirst.

I am worried about people who think it is ok to place funny remarks at a video showing shellshocked soldiers in world war I and II.. People who think it is ok to make jokes about how populations were mass murdered for (colour, religion, sexual preference or whatever)

That's what I am worried about because that might be the future of the world my son will grow up in if we forget..

[Lecivius]

+1 Cannonfodder

[Bullwinkle58]

Taking no sides on this question I would only add additional ones:

1) Does it matter if it's your country/culture being portrayed in the game?

2) Is there a statute of limitations? WWII is pretty real to me, born in the late 1950s. I knew many men, being I grew up in a Navy family, who had fought in it. Lots were still in the crews of the ships my father served in. But I can see how my stepdaughter, age 25, has only a passing emotional association with the war. Desert Storm found her a toddler after all.

3) Expanding #2, if there is a requirement for reverence due the dead, does this apply, say, to a wargame about the Seven Years War? Do I have to feel respectful of centurians I mow down when playing a Roman Empire game? Or do a lot of folks treat WWII differently because it was the biggest war, and it was relatively recent?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I can understand some of your friend's reservations from the Japanese side. There was little good that came out of that war for them and the memory of it. 'Gaming' their past feelings and national destruction must be difficult for them, particularly if they lost family members in the conflict or the bombings of the home islands. "Dishonoring the Dead" may be the closest translated approximation of his feelings on the matter.

These are not my feelings. I do struggle with keeping an eye on the historical pain and suffering of the war when I play the Allies. This impacts my gameplay in that I won't / I can't 'throw away' the lives of my digital forces. Emotionalism? Perhaps. But that's the way I play.

It is difficult for me to balance aggressive tendencies against the Allies (particularly American forces) whilest playing the Japanese (or Germans). I *must* play to cause as much damage to the Allies as I can. I can't say that I've not felt a ping of guilt (shame?) when sinking the Enterprise or butchering Allied troops on the ground.

Dishonoring the dead? Not really. So long as an eye is kept on the real-life struggles and sacrifices modelled, it's not disrespectful. The problem is when we lose sight of those sacrifices and human loss. Wargaming prevents this slide into the oblivion of the forgotten past.

+1

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I played the old Avalon Hill boardgame 'Midway" with my father, a World War II veteran. I can tell you that he certainly didn't think it was dishonring the dead. In fact, I think most World War II veterans would welcome the "tribute" given to the incredible struggle they participated in. Dishonor the dead? Heavens no. We are honoring them.

+1

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
It is not "how" you approach this game.

+1

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
The game is an abstraction of the war (the strategic and tactical situation).. You can't begin to understand the suffering of the people involved by playing any game...

not so much agree with this, though. with AE, or a game that tries to depict things with love to detail and logic, I feel one can learn quite a bit. sure, it never comes close to the reality, but I for my part feel that I learn things about reasons and troubles faced back at that time, which often are not in the books. also reading or viewing you think you learned, but it is a different learning than learning by trying. For me, I believe I can develop a better understanding and valuing of history, and the hardships and doing of the people that were involved and gave blood and sweat. it feels less disconnected, more alive than a book or a movie, if you know what I mean.

in the end it comes down to how you approach a game, a movie or a book that makes the difference between honoring, and dishonoring. just as you said.

there's one I'd be curious about how he thinks of gaming today. had he known about computers and the future of war gaming, might be he'd not have liked it either: "It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it.",
Robert E. Lee, 12/1862

[aphrochine]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
That's what I am worried about because that might be the future of the world my son will grow up in if we forget..

...or grow desensitized to it.

[geofflambert]

All the significant militaries in the world wargame past battles. Are they all "disrespecting the dead"? If so, the disrespect extends to the future dead they enlist or draft, which could very well include themselves.

The following point is essentially OT because it's a quibble on popular usage vs. (what's the word, expert?) usage. I have a friend who's been translating from German to English Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind for the last 40 years (he and his Philosophy Prof partner are almost done) objects to the usage "Philosophy of (whatever it is)". People have philosophies, not things, and these philosophies are about the basis of existence and our perception of it. So anyway, from an English professor's point of view, 'philosophy of wargaming' is perfectly legit, but not to a philosophy professor or scholar. In my case, it's a matter of being able to take both sides of the argument, because both sides are right (in a relativistic way).

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
I have a philosophy question for all of the forum folks in WITP. [...] He said “I can’t play such a game as it dishonors the dead.”

Boll*cks [8D]

Philosophy? If I want philosophy I read Aristotle or Descartes.

In wargames, we just want to kick our opponent in the groin, as it should be [:D] Simply to have some fun!

Come to think of it, in fact that's war basically: kick your enemy in the groin, as hard as you can. Techonology has changed things, but this basic, primitive principle is still there.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

All the significant militaries in the world wargame past battles. Are they all "disrespecting the dead"? If so, the disrespect extends to the future dead they enlist or draft, which could very well include themselves.

Geoff, I'm fully aware of how long the military establishments of the world have been doing this (both the Americans and Japanese gamed an attack on Pearl LONG before it happened) but I didn't include this aspect in my original post as I thought it was understood that,at least to me, there is LIGHT years of difference between gaming a situation in order to save lives and one simply to fill recreational time. But you have brought up an aspect that I shouldn't have taken for granted. Thanks.

[jmalter]

thanks for initiating this discussion, dr. hal.

"war will alway have its fascinations", i'm sure i work off a lot of aggression w/ a "pew-pew" mindset while gaming, i think it's preferable to being belligerent in a more general social context!

for me, historical wargaming is more than just killin' counters/pixels, it's a gateway to history, and sometimes a gateway to understanding how the past informs the present & influences the future.

in WitP:AE gaming, if i'm giving orders to a CV Enterprise TF, or see CV Akagi present in an enemy TF, the ship-names alone will 'trigger' memories of the historical record in my mind - the books & photos that describe the battles and list the casualties become even more 'real' to me, as i play the game.

i don't think that wargaming disrepects the dead, instead it gives me a more direct way to understand the pain & sacrifice endured by both victors & vanquished. gaming stimulates my imagination, & while i cheer my fighters on if they ruin a group of attacking Betties, i'm also aware that those virtual Betty crews won't ever return to hearth & home.

@gorn: "popular usage vs. academic usage"? nb, 'academic' is not a pejorative for me, far from it! but words evolve, they mean different things to different people.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

thanks for initiating this discussion, dr. hal.

My pleasure, it is a topic that I've wanted the forums views on for some time, I respect most of the writers on this forum for their thought provoking views. This thread is no exception. Hal

[pws1225]

Hi Hal - an interesting thread you've opened here. I'd like to share some thoughts from a JFB's perspective on this line of thought.

First of all, I can empathize with your college friend. His feelings toward the war and the game were no doubt based upon his personal experiences of hearing the stories of family and friends who must have suffered terribly. I can respect his sensibilities in that regard.

Second, playing the Japanese side in this game does emphasize the complete futility of their struggle to survive. Scenario 2 type mods aside, the Japanese situation was hopeless once it became clear that the Allies were not going to accept their initial gains. To play the Japanese in these circumstances in a game like WITP gives you the real awareness of what that sense of hopeless must have felt like. Certainly, the understanding of that is merely at an abstract level, but it does involve some degree of personal involvement given the demands that WITP places on its players. So to answer your original question, does playing this game in some way dishonor or trivialize those that fought in WW2. My answer is no. It allows players to experience, at least at some level, the feeling of absolute futility of fighting a war that you cannot win.

Regards, Paul

[mike scholl 1]

I've always thought of it as honoring the sacrifices of those who went to war by keeping alive the memory of what they endured. How many of you have met some "high school graduate" who thought the American Civil War consisted of "Lee met Grant at Gettysburg and lost"? Guarantee he wasn't a wargamer. One of the reasons I've always pressed for as accurate a simulation as is possible in a game is to see what challanges the original participants faced. Dr Hal's friend is certainly entitled to his attitude..., but I feel just the opposite.