A potential solution to the Lvov Salient?

[matt.buttsworth]

Hello

It seems to me that the problem of the Lvov Salient, and the in general unbelievably deadly nature of the German first move is that the German player starts with perfect knowledge of the Russian defence, and the most deadly turn that could be created by the collective efforts of every German player put together.
While I free Russian turn would also destroy the game, I think I have a solution for a German player who trusts his or her Russian opponent.
The solution is, to let the Russian player use the scenario editor to move any Russian unit they wish within 8 hexes of the Axis border one hex. This would create the element fo surprise for the German which existed in warfare although they would of course use recon to try and work out where the Russians now were.
They would not though now have the collective wisdom of every axis player preparing their turn?
What do peopel thinke?

My other solution to the first turn Russian railway turn was to put some of the Russian units on the train in the scenario editor to reduce their first turn mobility.

I think I am getting there but it would reqire absolute trust in a Russian opponent but could be reciprocated in the return match

Any thoughts everyone?

matthew buttsworth

[sillyflower]

That's not the answer. Most of the russian army would fall back and it would make life for the Germans game-changingly bad. There needs to be a fine tweak not a massive one

I should add that I prefer playing as Russian

[janh]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
That's not the answer. Most of the russian army would fall back and it would make life for the Germans game-changingly bad. There needs to be a fine tweak not a massive one

I should add that I prefer playing as Russian

I like your idea of using the editor to move Soviet units around before start. With an opponent you trust, you could add a house-rule limiting the range, units to be moved or such. Unfortunately this is no option for an AI game, though.

It seems with 50MP and no way for the Russian to react during the Axis turn ("just watch me for (half) a week...") there are only two extremes but little grey space in between right now:

(a) Early and large Lvov and Minsk pockets, leaving the Russians with less forces (quite likely leaving a withdrawal instead of fighting as the only reasonable option). This unfortunately has a huge impact on the course and balance of the game, but if the Axis player is about winning, this is the way to go. It will probably reduce losses and risks until blizzard a lot and accelerating the Axis progress.

(b) Play more historically by not entirely exploiting game-mechanics to maximum gains, e.g. wait for closing Lvov until 2nd turn. That ought to leave the Russian at least numerically stronger forces, besides that the units in the Lvov pocket other would be among the best. That course would sound preferable to me for players who care about plausibility and derive their enjoyment from the ride rather than a victory. In that case, however weak the Russian units still are in 41, the Soviet could then return the favor by putting up a fight (and not do what hindsight tells to be likely right: withdrawal and force conservation). Understandably, handing off any advantages so powerful as Lvov is a no-go for those players who just want to win a game.
Playing it out that way could lead to sharper contests and heavier losses to both sides prior to 41 blizzard, and might even turn taking Leningrad or Moscow in true challenges.

Unless they find a way in one of the future titles to introduce something like the reaction moves (orders) that AE has, Lvov and Minsk will probably remain. If it wouldn't have such consequences for the further turns, it would probably be less of an issue to both sides.

[AFV]

ORIGINAL: janh

(b) Play more historically by not entirely exploiting game-mechanics to maximum gains, e.g. wait for closing Lvov until 2nd turn.

I'm sorry, this is not bowling against my girlfriend, I can't just throw gutterballs in an attempt to help the other side.

I agree however that without the Llov pocket, this is a more interesting game. The problem is, that this game has been balanced with the Llov pocket being used- so if you take it away, the balance shifts dramatically to the Russian. So, if you take it away, you have to give the Germans something, to even it out- but what would that be?

[janh]

ORIGINAL: AFV
I'm sorry, this is not bowling against my girlfriend, I can't just throw gutterballs in an attempt to help the other side.

I agree however that without the Llov pocket, this is a more interesting game. The problem is, that this game has been balanced with the Llov pocket being used- so if you take it away, the balance shifts dramatically to the Russian. So, if you take it away, you have to give the Germans something, to even it out- but what would that be?

Depends, pretty sure as usual with such large, long games, people play for many reasons.

What balanced is... in part a subjective matter. It depends on whether you believe that what currently is the average outcome with two comparable opponents in a typical AAR (or against AI if difficulty settings appropriate for your skill) is what should have been equally achievable by the Germans. Since anything is hard to proof if it comes to arguing about alternative courses history may have taken, it to some degree is personal opinion.

For my feel, the Germans presently have to easy a time. Maybe it is logistics, maybe also a bit underestimated Soviet strength, maybe it could simply be the I-Go-U-Go that arguably gives the phasing player more options, more freedom than the defending one.

I never thought Lvov should be impossible, but the Soviet ought to be able to react to it and have a reasonable chance to delay it for a turn or sometimes even to put up effective resistance. Don't take it away, it is neat and could perhaps have been attempted in reality. But as the hard fighting for AGS showed historically, I believe it would probably also have run into trouble, even though it could have succeeded to prevent the hard-contested, rather costly crawl for AGS or the need for assistance from AGC.

If you look at it primarily as a game that should offer reasonably fair chances for both sides, the balance seems to be fairly in the middle-ground. If you reference it to history instead and assume that that one ought to be somewhere near the average course, the balance is a bit towards the Axis side with Moscow and Leningrad falling quite regularly. My thinking is that the typical advances for Axis are a bit too successful, so I wouldn't take anything away that is of concern prior to blizzard. My gripe is rather with the severe impact of blizzard on CVs -- the swinging of the initiative to enable the Soviet blizzard offensives should either come naturally from a reduction of the supply rates, plus the fact that the Germans need to be truly exhausted and somewhat depleted as they were -- or not. But also all that is of course just a matter of personal opinion.

Anyway, it plays very well now, and until WitE2 there will hopefully be some changes to the logistics and I-Go-U-Go that take WitE a level further.