Do BB fire enough in surface combats?

[Cavalry Corp]

In all the time I have been playing this game I rarely see BB perform well in any surface action - not one of the BB hit anything in this for instance. is it because of the range?
Should BB avoid night in general . Is the only time BB will do well when the range is very long???



Allied aircraft losses
Walrus II: 2 destroyed
Seagull V: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3 SLIGHT
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 1 SLIGHT
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 1 SLIGHT
CL Isuzu, Shell hits 4, heavy fires WILL BE OK
CL Kinu, Shell hits 1
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage SANK
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 1
DD Shigure
DD Samidare, Shell hits 1
DD Hatsuharu
DD Usugumo
DD Asagao
DD Fuyo
DD Karukaya

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 2 SLIGHT
BB Resolution, Shell hits 2 SLIGHT
CA Australia, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Cornwall, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CL Glasgow, Shell hits 2
CL Newcastle, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Hotspur
DD Isis
DD Jupiter



Reduced sighting due to 7% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 7% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CA Suzuya at 8,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Australia at 8,000 yards
CA Cornwall engages CA Chokai at 8,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Cornwall at 8,000 yards
CL Newcastle engages CL Kinu at 8,000 yards
DD Karukaya engages BB Resolution at 8,000 yards
CA Australia engages DD Fuyo at 8,000 yards
DD Asagao engages BB Resolution at 8,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Amatsukaze at 8,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Maikaze at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Australia at 6,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Cornwall at 6,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Australia at 6,000 yards
CA Australia engages CL Isuzu at 6,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CL Glasgow at 6,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages DD Samidare at 6,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Maikaze at 6,000 yards
DD Asagao engages DD Hotspur at 6,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Hatsuharu at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Glasgow at 4,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Prince of Wales at 4,000 yards
CA Cornwall engages CA Chokai at 4,000 yards
CL Newcastle engages CL Kinu at 4,000 yards
CL Isuzu engages CA Cornwall at 4,000 yards
DD Karukaya engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
DD Fuyo engages DD Jupiter at 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Hatsuharu at 4,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
DD Hatsuharu engages DD Isis at 4,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Samidare at 4,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Jupiter at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Newcastle at 3,000 yards
CA Australia engages CA Mikuma at 3,000 yards
CA Australia engages CA Chokai at 3,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CL Newcastle at 3,000 yards
CL Newcastle engages CL Isuzu at 3,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Karukaya at 3,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages DD Usugumo at 3,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages DD Asagao at 3,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Usugumo at 3,000 yards
DD Hatsuharu engages DD Griffin at 3,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Griffin at 3,000 yards
DD Shigure engages DD Isis at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CL Isuzu at 4,000 yards
CA Cornwall sunk by CA Mikuma at 4,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Australia at 4,000 yards
CL Newcastle engages CL Isuzu at 4,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Karukaya at 4,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Jupiter at 4,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Asagao at 4,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Amatsukaze at 4,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Hatsuharu at 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Samidare at 4,000 yards
DD Shigure engages DD Jupiter at 4,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Hotspur at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CA Chokai at 7,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CA Chokai at 7,000 yards
CA Australia sunk by CA Chokai at 7,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Newcastle at 7,000 yards
CL Isuzu engages CL Glasgow at 7,000 yards
DD Karukaya engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Fuyo engages DD Isis at 7,000 yards
DD Asagao engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Fuyo engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Shigure engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages DD Maikaze at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CA Chokai at 9,000 yards
CA Chokai engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards
CL Newcastle engages CA Chokai at 9,000 yards
CL Glasgow engages CL Kinu at 9,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CL Isuzu at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Isis at 9,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Hotspur at 9,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages DD Asagao at 9,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Amatsukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Maikaze at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CA Chokai engages BB Resolution at 12,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Prince of Wales at 12,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CA Chokai at 12,000 yards
CL Kinu engages BB Prince of Wales at 12,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Jupiter at 12,000 yards
DD Karukaya engages DD Jupiter at 12,000 yards
DD Karukaya engages DD Hotspur at 12,000 yards
DD Asagao engages DD Griffin at 12,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Maikaze at 12,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Any chance BB firing would say happen first or fire a bit more?

[hades1001]

According to some of my reading in this forum.

BB may perform better if you put them in a separate TF according to their speed and gun range.

That is don't mix them with CA/CL. And slow BB and fast BB should be separated too.

I'm not sure about this, but you can try.

[Disco Duck]

I used to think the BB's didn't fire enough and then I did some research. It seems that in the few battles there were some BB's fired a lot and some none.
The extreme case is the second Battle of Guadalcanal.

http://readerfeedback.labs.wikimedia.or ... uadalcanal

edit:
Also see this analysis of the battle of Surigao Straight. Some battleships fired a lot and some a little.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-079.htm

[geofflambert]

I can't tell what date it is, but if it is before radar fire control for the allies, by the time they see the enemy (at night) their secondary armament is most likely to get hits. The encounter can easily be brief with the opponent disappearing into the darkness, before the big guns can even find the range. Once they have radar fire control allied BB main armament is extroardinarily effective at any range night or day. See the battle of Surigao Straight. Also, early in the war, Japanese night optics gave them an advantage of seeing the allied ships at a range of 1,000-3,000 feet further than the allies could. At Savo Island the battle was pretty much over before the allied cruisers had a chance to zero in on their targets. Anyways before the radar improvements BB's were more of a liability at night. As a matter of doctrine I would not include CAs in a BB task force, but if you don't escort your BBs you're asking for disaster. Certainly DDs which are if anything faster than cruisers must be included. Additionally a CL or two bring in a weapon which operates at a high rate of fire at longer ranges than either destroyer's guns or the secondary armament on BBs and can do a great deal of damage to a destroyer attack on your BBs. This range advantage means nothing at night for the allies, especially considering that they are facing long lance torpedoes. So soldier on, your BBs may yet win a major engagement for you, but keep them away from enemy Bettys Kates or Vals etc. unless they are protected by your own carrier aircraft.

[eloso]

These 2 combats took place on 12-19-41 in a team PBEM game that I'm involved with:

The BB from both sides participated. You might fare better with smaller and multiple TF supporting each other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 6
BB Ise, Shell hits 9, on fire
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Hokaze
DD Sanae

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Dragon, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
DD Vampire
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1
DD Express



Low visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 15,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Underwood R. crosses the 'T'
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Ise at 11,000 yards
CL Dragon engages BB Ise at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Tenedos at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Vampire at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Ise engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards
CL Dragon sunk by BB Ise at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Ise at 5,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Yakaze at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Yakaze at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Ise at 8,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Nagato at 8,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Sanae at 8,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Hokaze at 8,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Ise engages BB Prince of Wales at 11,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Prince of Wales at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Tenedos at 11,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Tenedos at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vampire at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Ise at 15,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Express at 15,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Tenedos at 15,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Express at 15,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vampire at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Nagato at 19,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Nagato at 19,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Sanae at 19,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Yakaze at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Ise at 23,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Prince of Wales at 23,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Yakaze at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 26,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Sanae at 26,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Hokaze at 26,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Yakaze at 26,000 yards
Range increases to 28,000 yards
BB Ise engages BB Prince of Wales at 28,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BB Prince of Wales at 28,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Tenedos at 28,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Hokaze at 28,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages DD Yakaze at 28,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Ise, Shell hits 16, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Sanae, Shell hits 3, heavy fires

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 7, on fire
CL Durban, Shell hits 2
DD Vendetta, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Electra, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage



Poor visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 15,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
Caruthers T. crosses the 'T'
BB Ise engages BC Repulse at 8,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Nagato at 8,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Ise engages BC Repulse at 5,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CL Durban at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Electra at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Vendetta at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Electra at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Ise at 8,000 yards
CL Durban engages BB Nagato at 8,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Sanae at 8,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Sanae at 8,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vendetta at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Ise at 9,000 yards
BB Ise engages CL Durban at 9,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Sanae at 9,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Yakaze at 9,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vendetta at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BC Repulse at 11,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Sanae at 11,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Vendetta at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Electra at 11,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BC Repulse at 11,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Nagato at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Vendetta at 11,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Vendetta at 11,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Yakaze at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Ise at 10,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BC Repulse at 10,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Electra at 10,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Electra at 10,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Yakaze at 10,000 yards
Yano, Hideo* orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range closes to 7,000 yards
BB Ise engages BC Repulse at 7,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BC Repulse at 7,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Electra at 7,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Electra at 7,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vendetta at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Ise at 10,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Nagato at 10,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Sanae at 10,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Electra at 10,000 yards
BC Repulse engages DD Yakaze at 10,000 yards
Caruthers T. orders Allied TF to disengage
CL Durban engages DD Hokaze at 10,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Sanae at 10,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Vendetta at 10,000 yards
BC Repulse engages DD Yakaze at 10,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Nagato at 14,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Electra at 14,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages DD Vendetta at 14,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Yakaze at 14,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Sanae at 18,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Yakaze at 18,000 yards
Range increases to 21,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Electra at 21,000 yards
DD Vendetta engages DD Yakaze at 21,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
BB Nagato engages CL Durban at 25,000 yards
Range increases to 27,000 yards
BB Nagato engages BC Repulse at 27,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Electra at 27,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[HansBolter]

I notice that your British commander crossed the enemy's "T".

Has anyone else but me noticed that crossing the T seems to deliver the exact opposite results that it should?

It seems that almost every time I succeed in crossing the enemy's T only my lead ship fires in the first round while the entire enemy TF returns fire in the first round.......

[Sardaukar]

Came to my mind, that if one had large SCTF, escorting DDs & CL/CAs may actually screen BBs so effectively that BBs never achieve visual sighting with enemy. That could explain why in big SCTFs BBs seem to fire less and in smaller ones lot more.

About "crossing the T", I have not noticed any adverse effects, but there are so many factors in surface combat, especially at night, that it's difficult to be sure.

[Cavalry Corp]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I can't tell what date it is, but if it is before radar fire control for the allies, by the time they see the enemy (at night) their secondary armament is most likely to get hits. The encounter can easily be brief with the opponent disappearing into the darkness, before the big guns can even find the range. Once they have radar fire control allied BB main armament is extroardinarily effective at any range night or day. See the battle of Surigao Straight. Also, early in the war, Japanese night optics gave them an advantage of seeing the allied ships at a range of 1,000-3,000 feet further than the allies could. At Savo Island the battle was pretty much over before the allied cruisers had a chance to zero in on their targets. Anyways before the radar improvements BB's were more of a liability at night. As a matter of doctrine I would not include CAs in a BB task force, but if you don't escort your BBs you're asking for disaster. Certainly DDs which are if anything faster than cruisers must be included. Additionally a CL or two bring in a weapon which operates at a high rate of fire at longer ranges than either destroyer's guns or the secondary armament on BBs and can do a great deal of damage to a destroyer attack on your BBs. This range advantage means nothing at night for the allies, especially considering that they are facing long lance torpedoes. So soldier on, your BBs may yet win a major engagement for you, but keep them away from enemy Bettys Kates or Vals etc. unless they are protected by your own carrier aircraft.

thanks for the interesting observations the date was April 42. I am the Japs actually - when the combat opened i expected to be destroyed. The issue i had was the BB seemed to hardly fire and never hit a thing all through the long battle. Why not have CA in a surface TF, CA hits do destroy weapons on BB and kill DD? I think all in all as this game goes I would rather have two Jap CA than any ONE of the old BB ?

The ones worth keeping are the Mutsu and Yamato and the Kongo class for CV escorts or screens.

[crsutton]

This is not new. BBs in night fights have been dicey ever since UV days. And I think that was designed on on purpose. Lots of factors effect this such as size of TF, leader, crew experience, radar, moonlight and type of target they are trying to hit.

A US Navy post campaign analysis of the Solomons campaign concluded that old BBs and treaty crusiers were totally unsuited for night fighting in confined waters such as found in the Slot in 42. The reasons were slow rate of fire, older fire control systems and slow turret traverse. Basically the fire control systems could not adjust fast enough to the frequent and rapid course changes required in a close night action. I think this is one facet of the system that has been pretty spot on since day one...

I use them when I have to but basically I try to keep my old US BB out of night actions. They are just artifical reefs in waiting....Some of the old American BBs have pitiful night exp.

[Cavalry Corp]

OK if thats as designed its fine i suppose

[Sardaukar]

And you always have to remember that before Gunnery Fire Control radars (as opposed to search radars), in game one needs visual contact especially in night fight. You may have your CL 2k yrds in formation away happily shooting at enemy...who is 1000 yrds outside your BBs visual contact.

[lazydawg]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I notice that your British commander crossed the enemy's "T".

Has anyone else but me noticed that crossing the T seems to deliver the exact opposite results that it should?

It seems that almost every time I succeed in crossing the enemy's T only my lead ship fires in the first round while the entire enemy TF returns fire in the first round.......

I've noticed this too. As a matter of fact, I cringe whenever I get the message that my forces have crossed the "T".

[witpqs]

Worked well in my PBM. It's not magic though. Sometimes it matters and sometimes you get beat anyway.

[Shark7]

I think we forget one thing. BBs have very limited main gun ammo. In most cases 100-120 rounds per gun. That isn't a lot considering most of them will miss, plus no commander wants to run his magazine dry in 1 battle in case of additional engagements before a chance to reload.

I've had plenty of BB actions were the BBs actively participated. A few scored hits, but most as you can guess missed (accuracy of 20).

[oldman45]

I have had many battles where I crossed the T but too often came out with a loss or draw. Something there does not seem right.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I have had many battles where I crossed the T but too often came out with a loss or draw. Something there does not seem right.

Which begs the question: Is it that they don't fire enough, or is it that they miss too often?

[HansBolter]

When you are crossing the enemies "T" and only your lead ship fires in the first round while the entire enemy combat line fires back in the first round, it's definitely the lack of fring at all that is making the difference and NOT the misses that aren't occuring.