Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and reinforcement phases –the easy way

[Dancing Bear]

Hi Marshall
In another thread you mentioned that you could put the insurrection trigger area button in both the diplomacy and reinforcement phases, which got me thinking, why not put all the reinforcement function buttons in both the reinforcement and diplomacy phases? This way, if you have reinforcements coming, need to add/retire a leader, or loan a corps, you can do it at the same time as you do diplomacy and skip your reinforcement with no loss in functionality, i.e. essentially eliminate the reinforcement phase from the game, with a resultant leap in game speed.
And unlike the other skipping options which are mostly intended for nations at peace, this could be used during war time by most players. Most players are fighting France, who does reinforcement last anyways, so what difference does it make to Prussia/Austria/etc. if you place your reinforcements during the diplomacy or reinforcement phases?
Unless you are France, the only time reinforcement really counts is immediately upon a DOW when you might want to move into garrisons, place leaders and loan corps. A DOW against you would clear the skipping settings, so you would still get to do this (by doing a second reinforcement phase). And implementing this could knock 10-20% off game play time during a war, which is a considerable improvement. Almost as good as skipping is proving to be.
It might take an extra line or two of code to prevent is removing a leader during the diplomacy phase and then placing him somewhere else during the reinforcement phase. And if you loaned corps in the diplomacy phase, but there was a DOW against you, you’d need a way to change who you loaned them to (maybe a DOW against you clears the skip settings and any loan corps setting made during the diplomacy phase). And if you gained control of a minor, then you’d have essentially two reinforcement phases, but this is no big deal, as long as you only place the troops once. Obivously, if you did not place your reinforcements during the diplomacy phase, they would all be waiting for you to place them in the reinforcement phase as normal.
Unlike auto-deployment and auto-forage options which you indicated might be a little tough to do, this seems pretty straight forward to do with existing code, and would speed things up quite a bit. What do you think? It might well be worth the little bit of effort required.

[NeverMan]

This idea doesn't bother me.

Although, I would like to see the DOWs before I put on my reinforcements, etc.

[Marshall Ellis]

Neverman has a great point here. I would think thast several folks would like to react to the DOW announcements, no?
 

[Ted1066]

I know I would - reinforcement placement is contingent on what occurs in the diplomacy phase. I don't see how you could effectively merge these two phases without losing some ability to react to what occurred in the diplomacy phase. In FtF EiA, diplomacy was done simultaneously (for DoWs and negotiations mainly), so some time-savings could be had there if a way to handle it was developed.

I suppose if you were to build some of the reinforcement placement into the Diplomacy Phase and then opt to skip your reinforcement phase, that would work well to streamline gameplay,

Ted

[Jimmer]

Actually, during peacetime, it could work. But, if either power is or gets into a war (with anybody or any thing), the "combining" should be canceled.
 
I'm not exactly sure how that could be done, though.

[Dancing Bear]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Neverman has a great point here. I would think thast several folks would like to react to the DOW announcements, no?

Marshall, well, if you are skipping anyways, you can't react to the DOW against a third player, so third part DOWs are not important. I assume you mean a DOW against the player who placed his reinforcements during the dip phase. If this is the case and it is a problem, the game could clear the reinforcement placements just like the skip settings (i.e. revert to the forces at the end of the previous phase), and the player can place them again during his now unskipped reinforcement.

To everyone else, I am not proposing getting rid of the reinforcement phase. I'm saying let players place their reinforcements in either the reinforcement or diplomacy phases (or both). This way, unless you are France and you are at war, you can skip all your reinforcements at no real loss, almost all of the time. Essentially this elimiates a quarter of the phases. A pretty big gain in game speed.

[Marshall Ellis]

The problem you may run into with allowing this is this:
 
Diplomacy is essentially simultaneous so the turn order is unimportant. Reinforcement, however, is NOT simultaneous and the turn order is intentional (France last) so tell me would France would want EVERYBODY else to be able to perhaps see where she placed her forces BEFORE they placed theirs??? I would think it would be used VERY little (IMO).
 
 

[NeverMan]

1) It COULD work if an MP is at peace AND the reinforcements aren't shown until the MP's turn (thus essentially making it in order).

2) It would only work if it is cancelled if the MP ends up at war at the end of the Dip Phase. If "skipping" doesn't work this way then it should, although doing your Reinf phase early AND skipping your Reinf phase altogether are NOT the same. If you skip, you probably didn't have anything to do anyways, BUT if you are going early you might have a lot of activity just that you didn't realize someone was going to DOW you that month.

EDIT: Oh yeah and aren't all my points great Marshall? LOL.

[Jimmer]

Marshall, I agree that reinforcing order is very important, especially to GB and France. However, GB's phase order is totally backwards from where it should be anyhow! They should be last in naval, but early in land. With reinforcing combined already, GB is heavily penalized vs. EiA. Still, other facts may make up for that, and GB always knows how many ships are in enemy or potential enemy ports, so there aren't very many surprises possible.
 
But, the bottom line is that GB and France are highly unlikely to EVER skip their reinforcement phase, and both will definitely be interested in the placements of other powers' troops and ships.
 
If any changes are made to reinforcement, I recommend the following:
 
Move GB to second-to-last in the reinforcement order.
If possible, move GB's naval (only) reinforcements to dead last. If this is done, the previous item is not needed.
If any powers' reinforcement phases are made semi-simultaneous (as described by others above), exclude GB and France from this (so they remain last). In other words, only 5 major powers would have semi-simultaneous reinforcement.

[Dancing Bear]

Ok, I don't think you guys are not getting what I am suggesting. I should have simply described this, as "when a player skips his reinforcement turn, the buttons associated with reinforcment functions become available during the diplomacy phase". That's it.

It is skipping, while retaining the functionality of reinfocement turn. It would speed up the game because, a) presently you can not skip a reinforcement phase when receiving reinforcements, and b) some countries (almost anyone but France), shouldn't really care when their reinforcements are revealed so could opt to "skip" reinforcement almost all the time. France would never "skip" reinforcement anyways, so for France it is not an issue. This means skipping could be done by 5 or 6 of the players almsot all the time (assuming they want to), while France keeps her ability to place reinforcements last.

Does this make it clearer?

[Dancing Bear]

Jimmer, since GB (and everyone else) knows exactly many ships will arrive, where they arrive and when they arrive before the reinforcement phase begins, she can surely react to any naval placements at any time during the naval phase. How can going last during a naval reinforcement phase ever be an advantage over this knowledge?

I know you have pointed this out before, but I can not see how adding a naval reinforcement phase for GB only is worth the effort, and the slowing the game down for all players by 3+%.

The idea is only now possibly acceptable, if GB skips her reinforcement phase all the time, in which case why bother? I rarely even see anyone but Britain build ships anyways.

I'm sorry Jimmer, I just don't like the idea of changes to account for naval reinforcements. .

[Jimmer]

It's not a change so much as an un-change (i.e. getting back to EiA). But, I agree that there are other factors, and it's not critical.
 
IF, however, the reinforcement phase is changed, now is the time to fix this problem, at least as well as possible.
 
And, I agree with the idea of the buttons "pre-loading", if you will, when a skip is upcoming.

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

EDIT: Oh yeah and aren't all my points great Marshall? LOL.

You bet they are (When I agree with them) LOL!

[Dancing Bear]

Hi Marshall,
is this an idea that can be implmented without toomcuh difficulty?

[Marshall Ellis]

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might not be simple.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.

I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.[8|][8|][8|]

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.

YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.

I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.[8|][8|][8|]

No actually dividing by zero is simple, quantifying the result is a little tougher

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.

YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.

Throwing stuff into a file would not be the problem. The problem is that it is illegal to add factors to a garrison in the diplomacy phase, for example.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.

I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.[8|][8|][8|]

No actually dividing by zero is simple, quantifying the result is a little tougher

It is simple if you understand universal laws of physics and the interaction with attitude.

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