Appearance of phantom air units

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Icedawg
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Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

I just started the "Decision in the South Pacific" scenario as the allies and noted a strange thing on the completion of the first turn.

Five air units that had not been on the aircraft reinforcement list magically appeared at Noumea (three Hudson squadrons and two Wirraway squadrons). To top it off, they are all Australia Command units!

What's up with this? Is this some kind of a bug or something?

I tried starting the scenario a second and third time. In both of these cases, the same, unscheduled units arrived.

Has anyone else seen this? Or do I have some kind of problem with my game?
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

58 views and no input?

C'mon guys, help me out please.

Could someone just take 3 or 4 minutes, open stock scenario 4 as the allies and run the first turn? Check to see if these unscheduled Hudson and Wirraway squadrons appear in Noumea at the end of turn 1. If they do, that tells me my program isn't messed up. It would just be a bug or something. If they don't show up, it tells me my game is screwed up and I have to do a reinstall or something.

It's not like I'm asking folks to donate a kidney or something [:D] - just 3 or 4 minutes of someone's time - that's all.
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AW1Steve
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

58 views and no input?

C'mon guys, help me out please.

Could someone just take 3 or 4 minutes, open stock scenario 4 as the allies and run the first turn? Check to see if these unscheduled Hudson and Wirraway squadrons appear in Noumea at the end of turn 1. If they do, that tells me my program isn't messed up. It would just be a bug or something. If they don't show up, it tells me my game is screwed up and I have to do a reinstall or something.

It's not like I'm asking folks to donate a kidney or something [:D] - just 3 or 4 minutes of someone's time - that's all.

Let me give it a try.
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AW1Steve
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by AW1Steve »

I just ran the scenario , and on the second turn as allies I recieved at Noumea three Hudson squadrons and two wirraway squadrons , all RAAF of Austraila command. None where listed on the re-inforcement schedual. I hope this helps.
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

Hey! Thanks a bunch!

Does anyone know whether or not this has been reported as a bug or not?

Or is it one of those odd "design features" of this scenario?

Like:

1) The lack of allied transport capacity. I know the allies had very little to spare with regard to transports around this time of the war, but if the Japanese can manage to sink just 4 or 5 of the allied AP's it's basically game over as the allies won't be able to move troops around.

2) The lack of japanese ground replacements. The allies get an absolute ton of ground replacements (even Chinese rifle squads and Russian tanks - apparently the Americans and Australians owed a great deal to the Chinese and Russians for all of their help in the South Pacific!), but the Japanese can't even replace a single rifle squad!

3) The absolutely bizarre OOB's of some ground units (particularly some of the allied base forces).

Has anyone else noticed the surreal nature of this scenario, or is it just me?
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AW1Steve
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Hey! Thanks a bunch!

Does anyone know whether or not this has been reported as a bug or not?

Or is it one of those odd "design features" of this scenario?

Like:

1) The lack of allied transport capacity. I know the allies had very little to spare with regard to transports around this time of the war, but if the Japanese can manage to sink just 4 or 5 of the allied AP's it's basically game over as the allies won't be able to move troops around.

2) The lack of japanese ground replacements. The allies get an absolute ton of ground replacements (even Chinese rifle squads and Russian tanks - apparently the Americans and Australians owed a great deal to the Chinese and Russians for all of their help in the South Pacific!), but the Japanese can't even replace a single rifle squad!

3) The absolutely bizarre OOB's of some ground units (particularly some of the allied base forces).

Has anyone else noticed the surreal nature of this scenario, or is it just me?

You are welcome. I'm afraid that I had not noticed these things , but I'll keep an eye for it. I feel sheepish as I'm currently on a PBEM on the same scenario (turn 7) and never noticed the aircraft discrepency. I'll report back if I see anything. [8|]
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Hey! Thanks a bunch!

Does anyone know whether or not this has been reported as a bug or not?

Or is it one of those odd "design features" of this scenario?

Like:

1) The lack of allied transport capacity. I know the allies had very little to spare with regard to transports around this time of the war, but if the Japanese can manage to sink just 4 or 5 of the allied AP's it's basically game over as the allies won't be able to move troops around.

2) The lack of japanese ground replacements. The allies get an absolute ton of ground replacements (even Chinese rifle squads and Russian tanks - apparently the Americans and Australians owed a great deal to the Chinese and Russians for all of their help in the South Pacific!), but the Japanese can't even replace a single rifle squad!

3) The absolutely bizarre OOB's of some ground units (particularly some of the allied base forces).

Has anyone else noticed the surreal nature of this scenario, or is it just me?

You are welcome. I'm afraid that I had not noticed these things , but I'll keep an eye for it. I feel sheepish as I'm currently on a PBEM on the same scenario (turn 7) and never noticed the aircraft discrepency. I'll report back if I see anything. [8|]

Check out #2 in particular. Look at the allied replacement schedule and you'll see the allies have a huge list that even includes elements they can't use. Yet the Japanese player would sell his left arm for a few rare elements like, let's say, RIFLE SQUADS!

The lack of allied transports is a real killer, so if you're playing as the allies, keep those guys out of harm's way. If you lose just a few of them, the game is basically over as you won't be able to move anything around.

Good luck in your PBEM and thanks for the help!
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JeffroK
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by JeffroK »

Re 2)   I would assume that even though these are listed as available the Allies cant actually use them, Now if you got a Guards Tank Corps it would be useful.

I think the scenarios are "cropped" versions of a full game in many areas, so deleting a field which doesnt effec the game would be a waste. and the way WITP goes could effect something else.

Re 1)  Do those units appear on teh database at all, maybe with an earlier arrival date (What are the Sqn Nos?)
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JeffroK
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by JeffroK »

Icedawg, are you querying a WITP scenarios or a UV scenario.

If UV, I would rate its historial accuracy as average.
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Xenocide
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Xenocide »

I've noticed this before and assumed that when you select variable reinforcements that those pushed to before the start date of the scenario show up at the end of Turn 1 but never show up on the reinforcement schedule.
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JeffroK
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Xenocide

I've noticed this before and assumed that when you select variable reinforcements that those pushed to before the start date of the scenario show up at the end of Turn 1 but never show up on the reinforcement schedule.

Good thought, I had a look at the database editor and its basically the full game cropped down to the Solomons map.
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Re 2)   I would assume that even though these are listed as available the Allies cant actually use them, Now if you got a Guards Tank Corps it would be useful.

I think the scenarios are "cropped" versions of a full game in many areas, so deleting a field which doesnt effec the game would be a waste. and the way WITP goes could effect something else.

Re 1)  Do those units appear on teh database at all, maybe with an earlier arrival date (What are the Sqn Nos?)

Re Re 2) I understand that the allies can't use all of their replacements, but the Japanese get basically NOTHING for replacements. Open the stock scenario 4 of WiTP and check the ground replacement schedules for the two sides. The allies get insane amounts of replacements, while the japs just get support and engineers. They don't even get any replacement rifle squads. I understand that the allies obviously had a far better logistical situation than the japanese, but this replacement schedule is absolutely ridiculous. It's like comparing a Bentley to a Yugo. A Volkswagen to a Hyundai I could live with, but this is nuts.

Re Re 1) The squadron numbers are 2, 13 and 14 RAAF for the Hudsons and 12 and 25 RAAF for the Wirraways. They show up in other scenarios, so I suppose they are in the database. Aside from their appearance at all (given that they don't even show up on the reinforcement schedule), their LOCATION of appearance is all whacked as well. These are Australia Command units, so shouldn't they show up in Brisbane or some place on the Australian mainland?
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Icedawg, are you querying a WITP scenarios or a UV scenario.

If UV, I would rate its historial accuracy as average.

WiTP
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JeffroK
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by JeffroK »

I looked at scen4, it not called "Decision in the South Pacific" so I looked at UV for that scen.

Back to WITP

I assume they are 2,13,14 Hudson & 12, 25 Wirraway Sqns.

They are at Noumea on game turn 1 when I start with variable on & off.

Its a hypothetical scenario, I suppose anything can happen.
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: Xenocide

I've noticed this before and assumed that when you select variable reinforcements that those pushed to before the start date of the scenario show up at the end of Turn 1 but never show up on the reinforcement schedule.

Good idea, but I tested it with "fixed reinforcements" and got the same result. The same 5 unscheduled reinforcement squadrons show up in Noumea.

Go ahead and try it to see what I mean. Open the stock scenario 4 as the allies with reinforcements fixed, check the aircraft reinforcement schedule before starting the first turn (you'll see these squadrons don't exist in the schedule), run the first turn and you'll see that the "phantom squadrons" magically appear in Noumea (far from their Australian homeland to boot!).
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I looked at scen4, it not called "Decision in the South Pacific" so I looked at UV for that scen.

Back to WITP

I assume they are 2,13,14 Hudson & 12, 25 Wirraway Sqns.

They are at Noumea on game turn 1 when I start with variable on & off.

Its a hypothetical scenario, I suppose anything can happen.
Yeah, I noticed I got the name a bit messed up too. But now that you know its "stock scenario 4", we're on the same wavelength.

Yes, you've got the squadron numbers right.

I understand it's a hypothetical scenario, but having squadrons magically appear from out of the blue (and at an inappropriate base as well) just seems wrong. Add that to the non-existent allied transport fleet and the completely lopsided replacement schedules and this scenario becomes all-but-unplayable. It's too bad, because this is the only medium-length scenario that is relatively balanced. It has great PBEM potential for someone anxiously awaiting the mythical AE beast. It's just too bad that it is so botched.
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JeffroK
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by JeffroK »

I have them on Noumea at start
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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

I just started up with "fixed reinforcements" and checked for them. They are not there (either on the map or on the reinforcement schedule). I ran the first turn and got the operations report saying the 2, 13, 14, 12 and 25 RAAF squadrons arrived at Noumea. I'll try again.
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n01487477
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by n01487477 »

This is normal behaviour ...

The sqd have not been set a location in the database, but are available. Like in a game where your reinforcements are supposed to go to base when it has been captured, they go to the primary base instead. I've checked it in Tracker and the DB editor ... want screen shots ?

Why the big fuss ? They are not phantoms, just units that have not been assigned correctly / allowed to default to this location. You will not see them in the reinforcements as they are already "on map" although at no location the first turn ...


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Icedawg
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RE: Appearance of phantom air units

Post by Icedawg »

Just ran it again. Stock scenario 4 as the allies. Fixed reinforcements. The squadrons in question (2, 13, 14, 12 and 25 RAAF) were not present at the start. Other Hudson and Wirraway squadrons were present (4, 5, 23, 24 and 6 RAAF). At the end of turn 1, the 2, 13, 14, 12 and 25 RAAF arrived at Noumea. The 34 RAAF also arrived there, but I think that is a scheduled reinforcement. The operations report is pasted below.

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR 05/01/42

Coastwatcher sighting: 7 Japanese ships at 61,88
Coastwatcher sighting: 1 Japanese ship at 61,88
Coastwatcher sighting: 2 Japanese ships at 63,93
Coastwatcher sighting: 4 Japanese ships at 63,93
No. 2 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
No. 12 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
No. 13 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
No. 14 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
No. 25 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
No. 34 RAAF Sqdn arrives at Noumea
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